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I think a sign of "how bad was Katz" could have been the pitchers we shipped out performing significantly better, as we did with Burger. We shipped out: Middleton Lopez Lynn Giolito Kelly Graveman I will admit this is kinda s%*# because I just want to do it faster but yes indeed this is 1st half / second half so not that clean Middleton 3.09 | 3.86 Lopez 4.74 | 1.29 Lynn 6.03 | 5.36 Giolito 3.45 | 7.13 Kelly 4.82 | 2.38 Graveman 2.93 | 3.42 I am less of a stickler for the relievers. I think a lot of that is pretty random. Lopez had a horrendous april, but was pretty good after that. Joe Kelly's ERA halved, but also pitched way less on the Dodgers and likely had the benefit of much better matchups. Lynn did improve ...but he was still garbage. Giolito completely faded. Obviously, "did neutral" isn't a reason to keep around someone when you need to have an edge in coaching. But, I do think the talent on the sox last year was particularly garbage. They also pitch in front of awful defense. They have bad catching. They were undermanned and over pitched. San Francisco has an interesting enough pitching operation that I'm willing to let Katz/Bannister implement more of it and expect better talent. They have done well with older, FA pitching options and there are many of those this year. But if you fired him, sure, he oversaw garbage. But I think a LOT of this was a factor of having the worlds worst pitching in Charlotte, and needing to tap into a lot of that "talent"

Buddy you are gonna get Elvis night 81 times at the Rate next year

Tim is too much of a distraction and part of the problem in that clubhouse. The sooner the White Sox part ways with him, the better.

The problem with Vaughn and Eloy, like with any other Sox prospect, is that the organization just relies on the innate abilities of players to figure thing out on their own. They don't seem to have a strategy to actually develop players. The coaches at different levels of the minors may offer insight / input, but, as we've heard from former players (like Carson Fulmer), a lot of times they receive conflicting instruction. Look at organizations like Cleveland and Tampa who consistently take "okay" prospects and crank out serviceable big leaguers out of them, then look at us. AJ had it right in his rant against the Chris Getz hire - when's the last time this org has produced a serviceable everyday big leaguer out of a non-blue chip minor leaguer? Vaughn and Eloy are symptoms (and victims) of organizational incompetence. IMO, trading them away for actual prospects is still possible (maybe less so with Eloy) - if the minor league development system could be overhauled, my preference would be to trade them (and others) and start from scratch.

pick up his option, hope for a rebound and then trade him at the deadline. I dont get why you would just let him walk this year. We have so much money coming off the books and nobody worth looking at in the minors (Montgomery isnt ready) at SS.

Don't do this to Caulfield. He'll get so excited he might have a grabber.

That's never stopped us before.

Moore is simply incredible. That’s some Steve Smith s%*#

My White Sox Outlook is that I will be watching the minor league affiliates and the Orioles next season.

Fields looks like a completely different QB over the last 6 quarters. Calm, poised and decisive in the pocket. The light may have come on. Need to see more though. I have been critical of his play but he has earned some leeway with the last 2 games.

"Signs of life"? Come on man, Touki had an ERA near 5 and that almost perfectly matches his career marks. His WHIP almost matches his career marks. He is a guy who on a normal team is an 8th or 9th starter option, he fills in when your actual backup plans are used up because he's been hanging out on some team's minor league roster and he can be claimed or picked up easily and he has a bit of experience. Urena had a 4.1 ERA with the White Sox thanks in part to a .250 BABIP in 26 innings - he's in the same boat. They did how they normally do, give them enough innings and they wind up with an ERA of about 5 and your team doesn't fall apart on day 1 from them. But neither of them deserve anything other than the small paycheck they got for filling that role, there's no compliment to the pitching coach for 9th starters coming in and putting up ERAs around 5.

Cause there's really nothing to talk about otherwise re. our fave team. In the past I'd get in hot water cause we'd discuss Abreu and I'd express my support/love for him and face the music from the haters. Or we could discuss a good pitching prospect like Cease. Now? Pretty much we can't discuss any player cause all of 'em are unlikeable. Think about it, who on our team do you enjoy watching and are willing to discuss positively in a thread? Cease? That ship appears to have sailed. Too many pitches in his starts and walks ... Vaughn and Sheets? Not quite ... TA? Ugh. Only hope for him is amazing offseason work and comeback player of the year ... Moncada? Please ... Robert? OK but he still gets hurt too much lessening his loveability ... Kopech? 27 years old and trending downward. ... That new catcher we got? Appears to be a much worse hitter than Gary Peters. ... Trades? Nobody can logically discuss trades cause our guys are being dealt at their lowest possible value. In other words ... no discussion of the Sox can be held without discussing the fact the team reeks. None of us want that but there are no likeable players, the manager appears to be way overmatched and the GM has no experience. The owner is eminently unlikeable, seemingly satisfied with the one WS title. There are no topics to discuss. There are other threads to discuss MLB on the whole.

I feel like DeJong on the Sox would have an unbelievable defensive regression.

so I know Whit Merrifield will be our 2b next year but still struggling with who will be SS.

Bauer wasn't banned because of what he allegedly did at the time: 1. Bauer was banned because he's a prick and he's universally hated; when he was accused and being investigated, he attacked baseball. Meanwhile, someone like Marcel Ozuna and Urias have committed terrible acts but they've shut up, been good little soldiers, and were admitted back into the game. 2. Bauer faces 3 other accusers currently. Could it all be BS? I mean, I guess but this really is a reflection of what an asshat this guy is. I've said this before but baseball, generally speaking, is a conservative game; players lean towards being conservative, leadership certainly is, and politically speaking Bauer is not an outsider. He's just such a d-bag that the only friends he ever makes around the game are guys like Clevinger. Both Clevinger and Bauer might not be woman abusers (they also very well might be, as where there's smoke often times there are fires in that world), but they're shitty human beings even beyond your typical rich-prick standard.

The dumpster diving world which what the Sox generally do.

Yeah, this is not going to be a good team next year haha

I'm not.

They aren't blocking anyone so I don't see the point in trading them. They aren't valuable. Eloy could net something if he re-emerges as a 135 wRC+ guy. I still think that would be him in a different org.

In my entire life - this was the absolute least I have watched the Sox play.

Claypool really was that big of a cancer, huh? Dude singlehandedly ruined this offense the first 3 games of the season. Once again, Poles, masterclass trade.

Coffey made his first appearance, 1 IP 1H 1K and 1 BB that came around to score. Colson with a 2 RBI single to tie the game in the next inning. Burke has a pair of walks and a HBP, Ramos is 2-4.

His numbers should be even better. He made 2 pretty good throws to Mooney that he couldn't haul in.

so, this is another incredibly enjoyable first half, except now on both sides of the ball

I agree - but the talent at hand lent itself to this strategy imo. How many of our pitching prospects had an m.o. of "likely bullpen due to command"? He leaned into that, kinda successfully?, but i'm OPEN to seeing him perform with Bannister on a different set of pitchers.

Listen, I don't disagree with what you're saying. Its easy to sit here at your computer and say "Well I don't get why you need to choke someone to get off. Just don't do it". That's not how this works. I don't understand why people do drugs. Im not into that, but that's exactly it im not them and humans don't all share the same interests and desires. I completely understand why people wouldn't want Trevor Bauer on their team and why they don't want to root for him. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to be on a team period because some private thing hes into was dragged into the spotlight for malicious intents.

Gonna be so bad for a long time too. It'll be 3-5 years after the Getz era is over before there's any hope of greatness. And that's no guarantee.

It’s a fair question, but every time I doubt it’s significance, I remember Marcus Semien.

I know in golf players at all levels will make changes to their swings while working with their coaches. I don't see why baseball players would be any different. Some players have stuck with their personal instructors instead of the team coach.

I don't know how it happened, but someone managed to make them more aggressive, more ground ball focused, and less power focused than they were on those things in 2022, when they were really quite bad at all of them.

If that's the case, the end result is: Eloy has 1 guaranteed year of money remaining in 2024, at $13.8 million, with a $3 million buyout for 2025. Play him for next year, trade him if you have a better use for the money or someone gives you something of value for him close to the deadline, and if not you can have him removed from the roster by 2025. Vaughn will probably make $2-3 million next year and he's not blocking anyone. That is minor money for him even if he's a 1 WAR player next year. There is no good reason not to give him another shot for that money. It may be reasonable to non-tender him after 2024, as his salary will ballon to $4-$5 million in his 2nd arbitration year, and that might be more than he's worth by that point. If he's slightly better, you can still hold onto him for that money.

Jimenez needs to be traded. Guy is an injury waiting to happen and any thought he'll ever have a 35-40 home run season is delusional. Keep Vaughn (for now.)

We are in the process of ditching cable in our household to go to streaming and I told my wife that I want to make sure to get something so that I can watch the Sox games next season....and then I think to myself "boy that sounds kinda stupid to have that as a priority, huh?"

I just wonder what is going through these coaches minds when Pedro says to their faces they weren't good enough they are gone, but for some reason, his performance got him another year.

Was this therapeutic?

The big change this time is that there appeared to be an actual plan this time with an intentional rebuild. We got good results for two half-years… then the bottom fell out. The fall from hope was fast, persistent, and painful. That’s the biggest thing about this round.

Most of the games had good baseball, depending on your perspective.

Yeah. At least I'm putting my hope in a different spot than in the past.

Yeah, I'd LIKE to think that they're going to do something intelligent with the prospects. On that, I'm willing to give Getz some benefit of the doubt. I hope he has a plan for prospects. That's the extent of my hope for 2024, is that they figure out what to do in the minors. (yes, that's bleak)

Sox should sign Bauer. He did nothing wrong as far as I can tell.

She looked pretty happy and unharmed in those bed videos.

Just because a woman asks you to commit violent acts against her doesn't make the man committing those acts any less disgusting of a human being. He had the option to say no. Instead he did it because he took pleasure in almost killing a woman for sexual gratification. Her devious motives only exposed Bauer, didn't make him any less of a piece of s%*#.

…so I guess you can put me in the “full rebuild” camp, I guess. sucks, but that’s what’s needed to get out of mediocrity.

To be fair... what could Grifol possibly screw up? Like, what is the upside if they hire anyone else at this point?

The season?

He literally has to do nothing. Let the media deals keep accelerating the increased valuation of the clubs.

Milkman Delivers delivers!

I mean, his .070 BABIP is probably not sustainable, but wow.