Cease To Padres per Passan

[Tnetennba]

8 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

2 years IS controllable.  A team could immediately flip the player, trade the player at the upcoming season’s trade deadline, trade the player during the next year’s offseason, or trade the player at the next year’s trade deadline.  That’s 4 total chances to move a player, which is definitely “controllable”.

Rentals are expiring deadline acquisitions, not 2 years of cost control with qualifying offer compensation if acquired this season. 

[poppysox]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:58 PM, TheFutureIsNear said:

I think he’s a guy to “throw in” to get 1 more good prospect out of a team if they need an OF’er instead of a lotto ticket prospect. Like if a team offered prospects 2, 6, 10 and 25 for Cease throw in Eloy and get 2, 6, 10 and 12
 

I don’t really see Eloy getting any kind of significant return in a stand alone trade

Good...let's just keep him.

[TheFutureIsNear]

14 hours ago, Frobby said:

Who do you prefer?

I understand why orioles fans want to include Ortiz in a trade for a pitcher, but a guy who is going to be 26 before he reaches 500 AB’s doesn’t really make sense for the White Sox.

Kjerstad, Norby, Beavers and a pitcher like De Leon/Baumler

 

[Snopek]

12 hours ago, Southwest Sider said:

We are being gaslit into believing this is the best we can get. I'd rather hang on to Cease if we can't get any actual TOP prospects. MAYO OR BUST. 

And if you still don’t see the return you like at the trade deadline, then what? At what point are you being too stubborn?

Getz should obviously be trying to maximize the return, but it’s also such a fine line to walk. I’m surprised at how comfortable some of y’all are with hanging onto Cease. Just insanely risky.

[SoCalChiSox]

36 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Rentals are expiring deadline acquisitions, not 2 years of cost control with qualifying offer compensation if acquired this season. 

I'm sure buyers at the deadline will be glad to know that players with contracts expiring after the remaining half of a season will apparently cost the same as folks with two years since well they are both "rentals"

 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Snopek said:

And if you still don’t see the return you like at the trade deadline, then what? At what point are you being too stubborn?

Getz should obviously be trying to maximize the return, but it’s also such a fine line to walk. I’m surprised at how comfortable some of y’all are with hanging onto Cease. Just insanely risky.

I’m not comfortable at all waiting to the deadline.  If all offers are crap, then you really have no choice, but waiting on perfection is a really bad idea IMO.

Edited January 1 by Chicago White Sox

[Southwest Sider]

2 minutes ago, Snopek said:

And if you still don’t see the return you like at the trade deadline, then what? At what point are you being too stubborn?

Getz should obviously be trying to maximize the return, but it’s also such a fine line to walk. I’m surprised at how comfortable some of y’all are with hanging onto Cease. Just insanely risky.

Ehhh I'm coming from the standpoint that this franchise is likely a decade out anyway from any sort of relevance and if we're not really getting needle movers for Cease then what's the point? May as well roll the dice on an awesome first half and see if you can get someone's actual top prospects. No one should be untouchable for a guy like Cease, especially if he returns to 2022 form. May as well give him that chance. 

 

 

[ChiSox59]

53 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not comfortable at all waiting to the deadline.  If all offers are crap, then you really have no choice, but waiting on perfection is a really bad idea IMO.

Then again, Cease is the one legit chip the Sox have. They aren’t trading Robert for at least 2 years. I am not blinking in January 2024 if I’m Getz. Teams will grow more desperate as the winter drags on. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

And if you still don’t see the return you like at the trade deadline, then what? At what point are you being too stubborn?

Getz should obviously be trying to maximize the return, but it’s also such a fine line to walk. I’m surprised at how comfortable some of y’all are with hanging onto Cease. Just insanely risky.

Well first of all, if the offers at the trade deadline are crap, then it’s probably long past time to fire that pitching coach as a guy with Cease’s stuff should not continue being as mediocre as last season.

If you don’t have good trade deadline offers, the balance becomes - the offers you do get vs. the draft pick compensation you’d get the next year. An offer that returns something like what the Sox got for Lynn or Giolito would be disappointing, but if that’s the best you can do it probably helps more than waiting until the 2026 draft.

[fathom]

16 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Then again, Cease is the one legit chip the Sox have. They aren’t trading Robert for at least 2 years. I am not blinking in January 2024 if I’m Getz. Teams will grow more desperate as the winter drags on. 

I think Yankees need clarity on Snell and Montgomery before things really get cooking 

[WestEddy]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Well first of all, if the offers at the trade deadline are crap, then it’s probably long past time to fire that pitching coach as a guy with Cease’s stuff should not continue being as mediocre as last season.

Thank you for finally seeing the light. This is the selling point that is part of the presentation that asks for 1 top 30, 1 top 100, 1 future MLB player just out of the top 100, and a lotto ticket. 

And leakers have already been leaking that teams are thinking this out loud. 

[TheFutureIsNear]

41 minutes ago, Southwest Sider said:

Ehhh I'm coming from the standpoint that this franchise is likely a decade out anyway from any sort of relevance and if we're not really getting needle movers for Cease then what's the point? May as well roll the dice on an awesome first half and see if you can get someone's actual top prospects. No one should be untouchable for a guy like Cease, especially if he returns to 2022 form. May as well give him that chance. 

 

 

Yeah Cease is pretty much our Alamo. Trading him for a marginal return does nothing for the sad state of this franchise. Might as well hold your ground, take the risk, and trade him later than take a mediocre return now

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Thank you for finally seeing the light. This is the selling point that is part of the presentation that asks for 1 top 30, 1 top 100, 1 future MLB player just out of the top 100, and a lotto ticket. 

And leakers have already been leaking that teams are thinking this out loud. 

Finally seeing the light? Dude, go back and read literally every comment I’ve made in this thread. I’ll wait.

[SkokieSox]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

And if you still don’t see the return you like at the trade deadline, then what? At what point are you being too stubborn?

Getz should obviously be trying to maximize the return, but it’s also such a fine line to walk. I’m surprised at how comfortable some of y’all are with hanging onto Cease. Just insanely risky.

Less risky than a undervalued deal

[WestEddy]

51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Finally seeing the light? Dude, go back and read literally every comment I’ve made in this thread. I’ll wait.

Sorry. I am joking. This whole conversation has gone on and on. 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I understand why orioles fans want to include Ortiz in a trade for a pitcher, but a guy who is going to be 26 before he reaches 500 AB’s doesn’t really make sense for the White Sox.

Kjerstad, Norby, Beavers and a pitcher like De Leon/Baumler

 

Putting aside the rest of the package, I’d actually prefer that the WS take Norby and not Ortiz.  But I’ve been saying for a while that the WS could choose which one they want.  

I’ll explain, though, why I think the WS would be well served by Ortiz.  Simply put, he’s an extremely fundamentally sound, rangy SS who makes every play you expect him to make and some plays you don’t expect him to make.  And I think it’s been so long since the WS have had a SS with those attributes that the fans have forgotten just how valuable that is.  I didn’t watch Tim Anderson day in and day out like you guys, but from watching him 6-9 times a year when the O’s played by WS, and looking at his defensive stats over his career, he gave away an awful lot of easy outs, messed up a lot of DPs etc.  And that wears on a team.  

As to Ortiz’s bat, he’s not going to be upper echelon, but he’s not going to hurt you.  He’s got a sound approach and hits the ball hard consistently.  I’m guessing he settles in as a .710-.740 OPS guy, not bad at all for a guy with a plus glove.  

As to his age, I’ll concede he’s a bit old for a prospect, but you’re looking at controlling his age 25-30 seasons, so it’s not really a problem.  

This is probably more detail than you wanted, and to be clear, I’ve never suggested that Ortiz should be the lead piece, but in my opinion as a second piece he’d be a guy the WS would be very happy with.  Norby has his good attributes too, and I can see why some would prefer him since he’s younger and has more power, but to me Ortiz fills a pretty big need for the WS and would fill it well.   



 

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Putting aside the rest of the package, I’d actually prefer that the WS take Norby and not Ortiz.  But I’ve been saying for a while that the WS could choose which one they want.  

I’ll explain, though, why I think the WS would be well served by Ortiz.  Simply put, he’s an extremely fundamentally sound, rangy SS who makes every play you expect him to make and some plays you don’t expect him to make.  And I think it’s been so long since the WS have had a SS with those attributes that the fans have forgotten just how valuable that is.  I didn’t watch Tim Anderson day in and day out like you guys, but from watching him 6-9 times a year when the O’s played by WS, and looking at his defensive stats over his career, he gave away an awful lot of easy outs, messed up a lot of DPs etc.  And that wears on a team.  

As to Ortiz’s bat, he’s not going to be upper echelon, but he’s not going to hurt you.  He’s got a sound approach and hits the ball hard consistently.  I’m guessing he settles in as a .710-.740 OPS guy, not bad at all for a guy with a plus glove.  

As to his age, I’ll concede he’s a bit old for a prospect, but you’re looking at controlling his age 25-30 seasons, so it’s not really a problem.  

This is probably more detail than you wanted, and to be clear, I’ve never suggested that Ortiz should be the lead piece, but in my opinion as a second piece he’d be a guy the WS would be very happy with.  Norby has his good attributes too, and I can see why some would prefer him since he’s younger and has more power, but to me Ortiz fills a pretty big need for the WS and would fill it well.   



 

While he was never elite, Tim Anderson in 2020-2021 was a solid, slightly above average fielder. No amazing tools but DRs, UZR, and OAA all Say the same thing those years.

He collapsed in 2022 for reasons we still don’t understand. It all started right around the time where his “personal issues” started hitting Twitter - there was a game with the Guardians, Keuchel was on the mound, and all of a sudden the entire White Sox infield forgot how to infield. Anderson had 3 errors, Abreu had 1 and iirc there was another play by someone that could have been an error. Keuchel publicly commented on his defense after the game and the White Sox immediately started an 8 game losing streak - Anderson was terrible in the field for much of that, I think he had a couple more errors.

I remember joking that the Mon-Starrs had stolen the infields baseball abilities, it was so bad and such a sudden collapse from those guys, Anderson in particular. 

There was probably more going on behind the scenes than just Anderson and an affair going public based on how the whole team flatlined, this was where you could really see that LaRussa was completely lost.

That said, Anderson was a bloody mess in the field in 22-23, but was perfectly fine before that. Not elite, but fine.

With Montgomery and Ramos coming up, there’s plenty of reason to be skeptical about the White Sox needing a defense first SS right now. A SS who is adequate defensively and elite with the bat is fine by me and hopefully that’s Montgomery.

[Timmy U]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Putting aside the rest of the package, I’d actually prefer that the WS take Norby and not Ortiz.  But I’ve been saying for a while that the WS could choose which one they want.  

I’ll explain, though, why I think the WS would be well served by Ortiz.  Simply put, he’s an extremely fundamentally sound, rangy SS who makes every play you expect him to make and some plays you don’t expect him to make.  And I think it’s been so long since the WS have had a SS with those attributes that the fans have forgotten just how valuable that is.  I didn’t watch Tim Anderson day in and day out like you guys, but from watching him 6-9 times a year when the O’s played by WS, and looking at his defensive stats over his career, he gave away an awful lot of easy outs, messed up a lot of DPs etc.  And that wears on a team.  

As to Ortiz’s bat, he’s not going to be upper echelon, but he’s not going to hurt you.  He’s got a sound approach and hits the ball hard consistently.  I’m guessing he settles in as a .710-.740 OPS guy, not bad at all for a guy with a plus glove.  

As to his age, I’ll concede he’s a bit old for a prospect, but you’re looking at controlling his age 25-30 seasons, so it’s not really a problem.  

This is probably more detail than you wanted, and to be clear, I’ve never suggested that Ortiz should be the lead piece, but in my opinion as a second piece he’d be a guy the WS would be very happy with.  Norby has his good attributes too, and I can see why some would prefer him since he’s younger and has more power, but to me Ortiz fills a pretty big need for the WS and would fill it well.   



 

26 year old glove-first player who’s not elite even with the glove is not the sort of thing a big market team should be looking for. The moment you acquire him, you’re looking for the replacement.  Cease was an elite prospect with elite upside. To make it worth trading him, you gotta get similar upside.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

26 year old glove-first player who’s not elite even with the glove is not the sort of thing a big market team should be looking for. The moment you acquire him, you’re looking for the replacement.  Cease was an elite prospect with elite upside. To make it worth trading him, you gotta get similar upside.

I’m always wary of using words like “elite” because some folks are more liberal using that word than others, and you never know exactly until the guy is playing in the majors.  But in the minors, Ortiz was considered the best defensive SS in our system, which is saying something given that he was on the same team as Gunnar Henderson a good deal of the time, and Gunnar is a pretty good damned SS.  So, we’ll see, but at a minimum I’m expecting him to be above average for a major league starting SS.

Offensively, I don’t know that I’d call a guy with a .904 OPS in 504 PA at AAA light hitting, but I’m definitely not expecting him to lead with his bat.

Honestly, I could see scenarios where Ortiz is the Orioles’ starting SS, with Gunnar at 3B and Holliday at 2B.   But it’s not the most likely scenario given we also have Westburg, Mateo and Urias.  

[SoCalChiSox]

13 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

26 year old glove-first player who’s not elite even with the glove is not the sort of thing a big market team should be looking for. The moment you acquire him, you’re looking for the replacement.  Cease was an elite prospect with elite upside. To make it worth trading him, you gotta get similar upside.

I was OK with him as a second piece if you get a LH savage bat as the first piece, but the fact that the Orioles fans here are trying to push him on us is kind of a red flag to me, so now I'm now concerned he could end up like Madrigal here (not in the sense that he's a midget egotistical slap hitter but rather just the bust concern in general). I need to see @Frobby etc. putting up some resistance to giving him up so I can feel better about him. 

[TheFutureIsNear]

38 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Putting aside the rest of the package, I’d actually prefer that the WS take Norby and not Ortiz.  But I’ve been saying for a while that the WS could choose which one they want.  

I’ll explain, though, why I think the WS would be well served by Ortiz.  Simply put, he’s an extremely fundamentally sound, rangy SS who makes every play you expect him to make and some plays you don’t expect him to make.  And I think it’s been so long since the WS have had a SS with those attributes that the fans have forgotten just how valuable that is.  I didn’t watch Tim Anderson day in and day out like you guys, but from watching him 6-9 times a year when the O’s played by WS, and looking at his defensive stats over his career, he gave away an awful lot of easy outs, messed up a lot of DPs etc.  And that wears on a team.  

As to Ortiz’s bat, he’s not going to be upper echelon, but he’s not going to hurt you.  He’s got a sound approach and hits the ball hard consistently.  I’m guessing he settles in as a .710-.740 OPS guy, not bad at all for a guy with a plus glove.  

As to his age, I’ll concede he’s a bit old for a prospect, but you’re looking at controlling his age 25-30 seasons, so it’s not really a problem.  

This is probably more detail than you wanted, and to be clear, I’ve never suggested that Ortiz should be the lead piece, but in my opinion as a second piece he’d be a guy the WS would be very happy with.  Norby has his good attributes too, and I can see why some would prefer him since he’s younger and has more power, but to me Ortiz fills a pretty big need for the WS and would fill it well.   



 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Ortiz doesn’t have value…but you just described a lot of the reasons for not wanting him. It’s mostly just about upside. The White Sox are far away from filling holes with solid players. We should be in the acquire as much talent with upside as possible and sort it out in 2 years stage. Hell, you guys can keep both Ortiz and Norby honestly. Beavers and Horvath probably interest me more. 
 

Kerjstad, Beavers, Horvath and DeLeon  I would consider but would hope another team could beat. Anything less and I’ll roll the dice on Cease being able to string together 10 good starts to start the season 

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Ortiz doesn’t have value…but you just described a lot of the reasons for not wanting him. It’s mostly just about upside. The White Sox are far away from filling holes with solid players. We should be in the acquire as much talent with upside as possible and sort it out in 2 years stage. Hell, you guys can keep both Ortiz and Norby honestly. Beavers and Horvath probably interest me more. 
 

Kerjstad, Beavers, Horvath and DeLeon  I would consider but would hope another team could beat. Anything less and I’ll roll the dice on Cease being able to string together 10 good starts to start the season 

One thing that I haven't seen much talk about is how will Cease react if traded this winter or not traded.  Most of us assume a deal will happen and trade will have a new home. But what happens if the Sox don't get a deal for him and Cease returns to the White Sox . Will Cease be upset if he is not traded and  return w a vengeance heading into July trading deadline or will he struggle next season since he could be disappointed he did not get dealt this winter 

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

One thing that I haven't seen much talk about is how will Cease react if traded this winter or not traded.  Most of us assume a deal will happen and trade will have a new home. But what happens if the Sox don't get a deal for him and Cease returns to the White Sox . Will Cease be upset if he is not traded and  return w a vengeance heading into July trading deadline or will he struggle next season since he could be disappointed he did not get dealt this winter 

Dylan Cease is at a spot in his career where a strong season is literally the difference between a $45 million contract and a $200+ million contract. If he can’t find the motivation to be a Cy Young candidate for 2 years in that amount of money, then you wouldn’t want to trade for him anyway.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Dylan Cease is at a spot in his career where a strong season is literally the difference between a $45 million contract and a $200+ million contract. If he can’t find the motivation to be a Cy Young candidate for 2 years in that amount of money, then you wouldn’t want to trade for him anyway.

45 million dollar contract? Lol

[fathom]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Dylan Cease is at a spot in his career where a strong season is literally the difference between a $45 million contract and a $200+ million contract. If he can’t find the motivation to be a Cy Young candidate for 2 years in that amount of money, then you wouldn’t want to trade for him anyway.

Yep, I’d be more worried about a mediocre performance just because the team is so bad.  Defense will be better behind him, but losing a ton with no fans in attendance can deflate a player.