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He's been a league average hitter so far and he's only 23.

I can't believe there are people who feel this way. Is it because he was the #1 prospect at one point and people expected him to come out and be Mike Trout right away? I don't know how any intelligent human being could watch Yoan and have no hope for him. It's ridiculous.

What a weird assumption that the scouting was based on BA100 lists. Really weird assumption. You’d have to apply that same logic to the other trades to really put the cherry on top of this clown case you’re arguing Even today I’d rather have Moncada/Kopech than Acuña/Albies. Everyone has the same frustration with Moncada man, your position isn’t anything new. It’s just the general disappointment of last year with a bit of whiny added and a side of cliff-diving. Everybody is familiar with that point of view. A little improvement and he’s suddenly a reeeeeeally good player to have.

So the Sox traded Chris Sale, a generational talent, for a league average switch hitter (who cant really switch hit)

In case anybody wants to feel extra worse: @JeffPassan For some context on how incredible the response in Philadelphia has been to the Bryce Harper signing: In the first 24 hours after the launch of his jersey, according to @Fanatics, Harper's No. 3 sold more than LeBron James' Lakers jersey did the first day. Coulda been us with Manny but nope penny smart pound foolish ownership.

If Moncada put up an .800 OPS with 25 homers and 25 SB's as a 24 year old, would anybody really be surprised? If Sale's elbow blew up this year, would anybody be surprised? This whole conversation could be a total 180 by this time next year and I don't think anybody in baseball would be surprised.

Jack: Red Sox were 3rd in MLB in stolen bases.

@tlongofootlongcomiskeykiwi

If you're going to make a deal the magnitude of Trading Away Chris Sale on a Team Friendly Contract you should do a whole lot more scouting than evaluating each offers respective player's position on that iteration of the Baseball American Top 100. There were signs even then that Acuna/Albies was a better duo to acquire than Moncada/Kopech.

at this point with his struggles moncadas baseline is league average hitter and 2 war player. If he never improves this is his production. Thats one player in a package of 4 and 2 others are still promising.

I really wonder what creates this almost religious devotion to Yoan Moncada. Its been 900 MLB PA's and he still cant hit the ball, I dont even know what to tell you guys. People keep insisting to me that its too early to make any determinations, going so far as to compare Mike Trout's first 150 or so MLB PA's to a full season and a half of Moncada being an offensive black hole. My best theory is that the only way to endure the fact that a possible first ballot HOFer on a ludicrously cheap contract was traded away for four players, none of the other three being particularly impressive, and the only way to keep your head up through it is to just pretend Moncada has looked like this superstar in the making when the truth is he is closer to a infield version of Byron Buxton.

Adolfo!!

Not many guys left now off that 1959 team, not a bad hitter in two stints with the Sox. Some of his moments with the club are listed here: January 20, 1965 - Another big deal pulled off by Sox G.M. Ed Short which kept the franchise’s streak of winning seasons going. The Sox were part of a three team trade with the Indians and Athletics. When all was said and done, the Sox parted with outfielders Jim Landis and Mike Hershberger, pitcher Fred Talbot and catcher Cam Carreon. In return they got back power hitting catcher Johnny Romano, pitcher Tommy John and outfielder Tommie Agee. Agee would be named Rookie of the Year in 1966 becoming the first Sox player ever with 20 home runs and 20 stolen bases in a season; John would be part of the Sox brilliant starting rotation, making the All Star team for the first time in 1968. Romano wasn’t a slouch either in his second stint with the club, banging out 33 home runs in two seasons before being traded. April 19, 1965 – White Sox manager Al Lopez tied the record when he used five pinch hitters in the seventh inning of what turned out to be a 7-2 win over the Orioles at Comiskey Park. The Sox trailed 3-2 when Lopez began his maneuvering. By the time the inning was over he used Don Buford, Danny Cater, Johnny Romano, Dave Nicholson and Gary Peters as pinch hitters with Romano and Peters both hitting singles and driving in runs.Peters’ hit would give the Sox the lead for good. Lopez first used five pinch hitters in an inning on May 18, 1957 at Baltimore. September 25, 1965 - The Sox set the franchise record by hitting their 15th consecutive solo home run. The streak started at Baltimore on September 2 in the second game of a double header when Johnny Romano homered. The run continued until a game on this date was played in New York. Pitcher Tommy John hit the last home run in the streak. The breakdown saw Ken Berry with five solo home runs, Don Buford, Romano and Pete Ward with a pair each and John, Floyd Robinson, Bill “Moose” Skowron and Bill Voss with one solo home run. The Sox would tie this rather odd record in 2016. December 6, 1959 - In an effort to try to repeat as American League champs Bill Veeck and Hank Greenberg decided to make a series of moves to bring in hitters at the expense of some of the top young players in the Sox system. Veeck originally tried to get young stars like future Sox coach Orlando Cepeda from the Giants and Bill White from the Cardinals but was turned down. So he went in the only direction he felt he could. The first deal brought the Sox back outfielder “Minnie” Minoso at the cost of future All Star power hitting first baseman Norm Cash and future All Star power hitting catcher Johnny Romano. Cleveland also got John “Bubba” Phillips. Sox manager Al Lopez was quoted after the controversial deal as saying, “Some of us, like me, are not worried about next year because we might not be around then.”

This is one of those statements I wish I would never hear again, it misses why these 2 free agents were so important. Yes there will be names to fill those voids. Here are some of the names people signed to big deals last year to fill voids, and their 2018 salary: Jake Arrieta ($30 million) Yu Darvish ($25 million) JD Martinez ($23.75 million) Eric Hosmer ($21 million) Carlos Santana ($18.3 million) Wade Davis ($16 million) Alex Cobb ($14 million) Lorenzo Cain ($13 million) Zack Cozart ($12.67 million) Tyler Chatwood ($12.5 million) Lance Lynn ($12 million) Jay Bruce ($10 million) CC Sabathia ($10 million) Out of the top contracts given out on the market last year, only 3 - the bolded - are guys who actually lived up to their salaries. Everyone else on that list underperformed what they were paid in 2018, a 3/13 ratio, and that's totally normal for previous years! Now that baseball mostly has the steroids out, players who aren't HOF caliber move along the aging curve so quickly that by the time they get to free agency, team sign them thinking they're filling a hole, and then that guy winds up being a disaster and a waste of money. It's going to happen to guys this year, it's going to happen to guys next year. Next offseason I'll be able to make a comparable list with the signings this year. The Astros have done better getting these level of Free Agents than any other team the last 2 years - Morton was a huge addition for them - but even for them, they signed Beltran to DH and he disappointed, and Josh Reddick was good in year 1 and weak in year 2 of his deal. The reason why the FA market has been so frozen the last 2 years isn't just that teams are trying to save money by rebuilding, it's because of lists like that. It's because playing the free agent market for guys in their early 30s sets the team up to waste their money. It's flat out dumb. When your team has a void, you're going to fill it with the next Yu Darvish. Why were these 2 free agents so important? Because the deck is stacked in favor of the teams for once. The player is hitting free agency at such a young age, 26, and while they are putting up such elite performance that even if they age normally, the team should get their money's worth. This was our chance to sneak around these odds and to avoid the mistake that so many teams made with those signings. But we blew it, because even management hasn't yet been able to figure out that this is a problem.

Moncada's a bust. Eloy will be a star.

This absolutely hilarious stuff. Good googly moogly, that's bad.

Almost all of those guys have similar records of success. I even dropped Greg Holland from the list because he was terrible last year, but he got 1/2 as much as Colome. And you insult me as stupid and then you say that Narvaez is a 0 WARP player, so you go specifically to the one where he looks the worst, but he was a 2 WAR player in both B-R and Fangraphs last year and the projections put him from 1-1.5 next year, and that's without any additional coaching. So in my eyes, the White Sox gave up a more valuable, 1-2 WAR player from last year for a 1 WAR player and the right to pay him more than market value. You can disagree with me fine, but you needed to make it personal. I'll point this out every time you want to rip him because it's flat out true, the White Sox would have been better off releasing him and signing a FA, but I'm done for now so call me stupid all you want and I hope it brings you joy.

So you think you're too intelligent for your own good? You actually think that? Jesus Christ, dude. I'm gonna leave this thread now.

By the same metric used to define Sexton, Wendell Carter is the 60th of 65 centers in the entire NBA. I don't have him rated that poorly but you really dont think Wendell Carter's are available every year? Agree to disagree there. Center the weakest position in the NBA at the bottom too.

He's on a horrible team with no support. He's a talented kid. the point is Wendell Carter's are available every year. Jmo. I don't know what Sexton will become but I'm pretty confident in saying what Wendell Carter can become.

So if you live where Spring Training is would you prefer to see other teams in action. Nothing really excites me to see the Sox this season. Sometimes I enjoy baseball when my emotion is not attached to it.

Jay and Alonso to Marlins for Avisail Garcia and prospect. Sorry for the sarcasm today..

I'm assuming you are discussing only modern era players. If not few can beat Shoeless Joe's numbers.

We aren't going to see one of the others pitch again for another calendar year and the third guy looks decent-but-not-special. Someone should do a wellness check on Victor Diaz by the way. It was a bad trade. I know people dont like hearing that but it was awful. Hindsight is always 20/20 but they would've been so much better off pursuing a deal with the Braves.

If you're basing this on his age 21 and 22 seasons with absolutely no future projection of improvement and not including Kopech or Basabe then yes that is correct.

Mendick and Seby producing this year would be nice indicators of player development. I think for the elite players its not necessarily player dev working as much as luck and scouting philosophy. But a good player dev squad should squeeze the most value from every player, so you get a solid stable of people like this. Mendicks power improves, his numbers are never good enough that you believe, not since W-S. But I don't know, if you get a tyler saladino level player from him that's really nice!

I REALLY want Danny Mendick to be good. Men-dick! Men-dick! Men-dick!

Someone is going to end up with Kuechel on a steal and be very pleased in my opinion.

Keuchel... Should we? Buster Olney's new article today shows a very limited market with no one wanting to pay or go long term. Should Sox be aggressive and offer 5/70? Value would be tremendous and he would lead the team the next few seasons and be on the team during contention window. At worst...he is a #3 on this team in a couple years and maybe can help mentor the young guns. I know 5/70 is probably unrealistic, so let's say 5/80 max offer. Just seems solid to me. Thoughts?

Robert reminds me of a young Andruw Jones.

At the plate, and physically, Moncada reminds me of Rickey Henderson. Obviously he's going to strike out a hell of a lot more, but he also has a lot more pure power.

It's become a self fulfilling prophecy, they were really 0-2 in last 20 years. You could take many years of college pitching and say we are 0-2 in many of those samples. So then they are hoping the limited selection of high schoolers in later rounds panned out to prove it, which is also a crap shoot. If you look at other teams, they'll fail on some hs picks. They'll succeed on several too. This isn't a pro white sox development take, moreso that we don't really know how good or bad they are because they don't really try. I mean, if they had drafted corey seager would corey seager suck? Man hopefully not.

I'd like to see more NBA-style trades like this.

This is the key to the rebuild. It depends on those three guys. If two don't develop in to stars, they're screwed. As good as Eloy is, both Moncada and Robert's ceilings are higher. Eloy is the safest bet to reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is, in my opinion~4.5-5.5 WAR. Moncada and Robert will probably be at least 2.5-3.5 WAR players, with the ability settle in at 5-6.5 and put up individual seasons of 7-8+ Ceiling in terms of player comp, based on my opinion: Eloy-JD Martinez Robert-Mookie Betts Moncada-Jose Ramirez This is ceiling, as in best case scenario people.

Did we have a star in 05?

Moncada would have to improve quite a bit at the plate to be more valuable at 3rd, unless he is significantly better at 3rd than 2nd which I find hard to believe

If the White Sox had 3 more starting pitchers as good as Lopez, White Sox fans would have a better outlook on the upcoming 2019 season than what they do now.

Vaughn was the best hitter (college or HS) last year and he is even more dialed-in this year. He is on a rediculous pace that would mark the most productive season in NCAA history. His track record as being in a league of his own goes back to HS. Sure pitchers will be extra careful and start pitching around him. That said, I can see teams buying into the narrative that 1B is less important and therefor pick a MI/CF. I understand in some instances 1B is a 'default-to' position but, all you have to do is watch Rizzo, Freeman, Votto and, to a lesser extent Hosmer and count how many throwing errors they save (vs. say Abreu) to appreciate the value of a 1B who can play defense, especially with the way shifts are employed today. I can get behind Rutschman, a HS MI w/upside or a lights out pitcher with the 3rd pick but I just don't buy passing up Vaughn because he is a 1B.

Dylan Cease is a guy that I am really looking forward to seeing pitch in AAA this season. He seems to have the potential for a June/July call-up (assuming he starts in Triple-A and not Double-A). I really think that we will see him elevate into the top 10 of prospect rankings by mid-season. Luis Gonzalez is a guy that I am really high on. Seems like he can do a little bit of everything. I am guessing he starts the season in Birmingham, and I am very interested to see him compete against that level. Eloy is going to be a star in this league, I have no doubt about that. Kopech, assuming there are no set backs from the injury, will be excellent for the White Sox. From what I can tell, he is one of the hardest workers in the game and I think this injury will only motivate him more to come out of the gate really strong in 2020. Luis Robert's potential is out of this world. I said it in another thread, but I think he could potentially follow the Ronald Acuna path by playing in three different levels his year.

No one falls in love with their shitty players quite like Bulls fans.

I will very surprised if Eloy is anything less than extraordinary. Like MVP caliber if it weren't for the GOAT hogging the award every year. Rutherford is an all star caliber player to me. He's got it all once the power develops. Robert can be the best of the whole bunch, even better than Eloy, but he can't stay healthy and even if he does I have zero faith the Sox can develop him. He would basically have to overcome the Sox ineptitude through sheer talent. Hopefully Kopech recovers. They need him to be a stud, which everyone sees the obvious potential for. Madrigal should be a good 2b. The rest gives me almost no cause for hope unless someone like Adolfo has a few things go right. I have no hope for Moncada, Giolito or Lopez.

The hot takes on WCJr here are freaking Gold lol. Fyi, WCJ has shown more than enough talent to be excited about. Please post this type of thing on any respectable NBA or Bulls message board to find how awful that take actually is. Good grief.

Thank you Lip for providing wonderful historical stories. I know it's meaningless ancient history to many here, As for myself I remember many of the names you mentioned but don't remember Romano playing for the Sox. I remember John , Peter ,Berry , Ward, Aparicio and Buford so my awareness of the SOx started around 1967 or 68 at the age of 9 or 10. Of course I know of him because as I got older I became more aware of Sox history and even got an A on a paper I wrote comparing a Sox team to the 59 team. It was probably the 1975 or 1976 team. I knew my teacher was a Sox fan too . One of the few easy A's I ever got in H.S. Sounds so strange now to hear Peter's was used as a pinch hinter and got a hit even though I'm aware he was a good hitting pitcher thanks to sometimes playing Strat-o-matic baseball before the computer age.

When your employer just wants to employ yes-men and yes-women and there's no pressure on you as long as you tell them the person above you is great, the job is great until the employer goes out of business.

Would it kill the son of a b*tch to show some loyalty to the FANS, for once!

You will "trust the scout on Madrigal"? WTF? The kid is a baseball player. The kid is a winner. Maybe the kid is a hair slower than say Anderson or Moncada. Who gives a s***? He will make every routine play that guys like Anderson and Moncada struggle with half of the time. He will make the tougher play most of the time too. He makes contact. He gets on base. Every championship team has guys like him on it roster. Excluding Jimenez who has just mashed at every stop in the minors, Madrigal is the one prospect of ours that I have zero concern about. Madrigal is so good with the glove that I would move Anderson to second base for him.

I think that it is a pipe dream to expect the White Sox to rise from the ashes with only prospects developing. Looking at the Cubs and Astros alone, neither of them win with singing the right veterans to supplement their young players. Injuries happen. Expectations are not met. Guys flame out after early sparks. Too many names to count in the annals of the game to even try listing them. Players like Machado and Harper rarely make it to the market. Guys with proven track records of elite production who are are so young that lengthy, expensive contracts are justifiable. Guys who make it to that market when all of the large market teams are virtually capped out and cannot offer a contract that smaller market teams can outbid them for. The White Sox make shrewd signings of Abreu and Robert in similar circumstances. It was gravely disappointing to most of our passionate fanbase that we did not make the commitment to one of them. It is quite frankly inexcusable that a deal was not closed with one of them. There is no way to sugar coat that or explain it away.

Dude, seriously? Is this all that you have? WTF planet are you living on? I get it. A bunch of people who use criteria that none of us casual fans will ever understand arbitrarily "rank" players and give them "grades". Why do people like you take these things as the word of God? I have seen Moncada for a full season and part of another. I have seen nothing that makes me believe that this guy is an "elite" talent. Why are you still keeping the party line that this kid is a future HOF player just because a bunch of stat geeks looked at a spreadsheet, saw his "grades", and ranked him an "elite prospect"? When the Red Sox offered him instead of Benitiendi, that should have told you how they felt about those two guys. One was expendable. One was a guy they wanted to keep for the future.

lol k i'm done.

I'd just like to reiterate that the anon Internet Points is dumb and encourages passive aggressiveness. Just my opinion.