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Your what hurts?

My goodness; as much as I think we like to view ourselves as moralistic absolutists who would always do what is right... I have a hard time buying this. 1. Manfred doesn't care; he was told multiple times and ignored it 2. You will be done with baseball for good; no one will hire someone that does that. However right or wrong. I think Hinch had more control and power and obviously could have stopped it; it's a cop out to argue otherwise imo.

I think it's way easier for us to sit here Monday morning quarterbacking and say we would of quit or blown it open. But in real life, you don't narc on your team and co-workers. I suspect most of us would of done similar to what AJ did.

This is what hurts.

AJ Hinch basically poisoned the Mississippi River. Pass.

Crazy but IMO actually sensible deal if the Red Sox want to dump salary: Sale + Vazquez for Grandal + Keuchel + Lopez + Rodon + Mazara, pre-nontender deadline Why for Sox: They are probably looking at trying to dump Rodon and Mazara anyway, and probably looking at least at a change of scenery deal with Lopez. They effectively swap out Keuchel's spot and contract for Sale's, meaning that there's more risk and more money, but way more upside also. Vazquez slots in at C and Collins sits behind him. In reality, Vazquez is an upgrade over Grandal as a C immediately, and he is under control through 2022 with also a chance at a QO if he is worthy for 2023. Grandal is guaranteed through 2023 so it's almost a wash on control, and Vazquez is more easily extendable for 2023-2024 because his current contract basically would mean that the Sox have him by the balls a bit. I bet Hahn could extend Vazquez's deal. Why for Red Sox: They get to dump all of the remaining salary owed to Sale. Also they can choose whether they want to try to take a shot on Rodon as a SP or closer as a deadline piece, and a shot at Mazara also as a deadline trade piece. Keuchel gives them rotation certainty at a much more reasonable cost and Grandal really fits the Red Sox as a part time C part time DH with OBP and power. Lopez is also a reclamation project they have rotation space form, but one they could try to keep if they can fix him. If the Red Sox wanted they could nontender everyone but Keuchel and Grandal. Not sure on arb raises but in 2020 salary the Sox send out 18.25M for Grandal + 18M for Keuchel + 4.45M for Rodon + 5.56M for Mazara + 0.605M for Lopez = 46.865M in 2020 salary, and send out 110.75M in guaranteed obligations to Keuchel (56M through 2023) and Grandal (54.75M through 2023). Meanwhile the Red Sox send out 30M for Sale + 4.2M for Vazquez = 34.2M in 2020 salary and send out 142.25M in guaranteed obligations to Sale (135M through 2025) and Vazquez (6.25M in 2021 with a club option on 2022 for 7M with a 0.25M buyout). The Sox would take on about 31M more in guaranteed money but would get Sale through 2025 and Vazquez through at least 2022, again with a great chance of keeping him beyond that point. Personally I would chance it with Sale if the medical staff and pitching coaches could look at him. The contract lessens in value over time, down to 27.5M then 20M in 2025 for his age 36 season. We would be betting on a successful return from TJ and paying for his age 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36 seasons, probably hoping we get some help in the second half of 2021, an ace in 2022-23, maybe a #3 in 2024, and a #5 or reliever in 2025. **Edit: I like this deal because it redirects 2 contracts that I think are going to be at least somewhat regretful in 2022-23 anyway, and allows us a chance to put a legit #1 and a LHP at the top of our rotation (again) while making a defensive upgrade at C for our playoff window. And hopefully it would keep enough salary available to still go after Stroman/Bauer/etc. this offseason. I really am not a huge fan of Grandal behind the plate overall and as a leader of the pitching staff and defense, and I also don't like him taking DH ABs from Eloy who should be there now and Abreu who should be there pretty soon. And additionally I still think Keuchel is more likely to be a #3-#5 than the top-end guy he pitched like this season, and the guy who once won a Cy Young.

Uh, yes. I'm going to risk my career to stop my chemical company from polluting the Mississippi. One is literally killing people; the other is... uh... a baseball game. Same difference

Us "fools" clearly explained why this proposal is silly. If your whole proposal is based on an "If Sale is healthy" it only proves our point more. Let this one go. There's no point to it and there's a lot of better directions to go in.

Sale had Tommy John surgery on March 30. He will not pitch a full season in 2021. Sale will cost more money in 2021 than Keuchel. That would potentially limit what the Sox could spend on additional pitching. McCann being a FA is the least of why the Sox will not trade Grandal. Vazquez brings nothing to the table. And thats not even addressing the Red Sox side of the whole equation. This trade proposal is not the worst I've ever seen, but it is definitely a strong contender.

First I would tell the team to stop. Second, I would tell the Front office. And if none of that worked I would resign and tell the world what is going on, This is the problem I have with Hinch. Sure he destroyed a camera or 2, but he is in charge, and they put a new camera up. For all of you who think that is nothing, I doubt you would think it is nothing if Ricky Renteria had the same thing happen. I doubt you would think there really is very little a manager could do in that situation if it was Robin Ventura. It is totally fucked up, and any way you slice it, he is complicit. Cheating has always been part of baseball Stealing signs the old fashioned way, no one,IMO should have a problem with, but this way, was a home field advantage no one should ever have. Hinch is lucky he only got one year. He didn’t kill anyone. He didn’t rape anyone. He didn’t beat his wife. He isn’t a pedophile. So I guess he deserves another chance. Sure Dallas Keuchel likes him. But a lot of people want the Sox to sign Joc Pederson. If you are Joc, and the money is similar, do you want to play for a guy whose blantant cheating may have cost you a ring? If you played in the AL West or were on a team that the Astros eliminated during this time, what do you think of AJ Hinch? What about the rest of the league.? There has not exactly been a shortage of Astros hate from players around the entire league since this story broke. I do think he is the far greater choice than LaRussa. Supposedly his baseball mind many who know of him, a lot better than me, think is unmatched. But I wonder what kind of toll the scandal takes on him. There is going to be a lot of pressure on him, both fair and unfair. But at least you can say he brought it on himself. A place like Chicago, where he would be expected to win big right away might be the wrong move for him. If the White Sox won 88 games next season and either fail to make the playoffs or are eliminated quickly, his entire record in Houston will be questioned. Many will say his WS title is not legit, the only reason he has it is cheating.

Heres a bit of advice, when you look for evil everywhere, thats all youll find. flat out sad that you believe his stance on the issue is based on racism, and not patriotism. Further a rejection of the BLM message or propaganda that blacks are being hunted or disproportionately victimized does not mean someone is racist. Its very clear based on your history of posts on this and other topics that you automatically assume the worst about someone when they have different opinions than you. Thats what i find sad.

Thank you Orlando for always giving us this type of interesting info, it is much appreciated.

Attention: Tim Kanter is a steely eyed missile man!!

That is so awesome!. Sometimes I'm really proud to be a sox fan.

Welcome to Soxtalk!

I'm ecstatic over 1 playoff appearance in 12 years . Maybe his peers can give him one every 12 years.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/10/astros-heckler-megaphone-alcs-cheating-scandal-balcony-petco-park https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/15/sports/baseball/astros-heckler-megaphone.html?smid=tw-share This is national story that's been in USA Today and NY Times. Did the SunTimes or Tribune write anything about this guy Tim Kantner ? Thanks to the guys in the ALCS thread in Diamond Club for finding this. SInce it was a Sox fan I figured it should go in Pale Hose Talk.

Been spending too much time on MLB the Show, ehh?

I’d be fine with Hasler but it kind of depends what they think Zaleski is long term. If he’s their pitching coach soon, making Hasler the pitching coach now might not make sense. If Zaleski is the long term plan, maybe he becomes PC now and Hasler stays in bullpen. It just depends I guess.

I don't wish to discuss further. I'm going to delete my post, I ask if you guys will do so as well. Not worth it.

FWIW Merkin did a mailbag today and was asked about pitching. Will the White Sox look to add a number two/three type pitcher or a back end guy and hope either Dylan Cease/Dane Dunning orMichael Kopech can fill the three spot? -- Jon, Grafton, Wis., @chisoxjon Add a couple of solid starters and slot them in where needed, as opposed to worrying about adding a one, two or three. Think along the lines of a starter such as Jake Odorizzi.

Mr plow is a loser and I think he is a boozer.

Bauer and Springer- make it rain Reinsdorf. If he is unable or worse unwilling after almost 40 years to turn this organization into the major market juggernaut it should have always been, then it's time to let it go to an affluent group of hungry sportsmen. Chicago is only major market that would have stood for this nonsense for this long.

Sale was dealing with shoulder and elbow issues ala Rodon but I only play a doctor on Facebook. I would just be leery.

The manager can tell them to stop, bench them and take the garbage can and pc away. Failure all the way.

She's not wrong.

I believe that I'm a moral person. I don't lie, I don't cheat (not even in golf), and I don't steal. I treat EVERYONE with respect until they show me that they don't deserve it. That being said, I'm loyal to a fault. I'm so loyal to my current employer that I would be a bit unethical if it helped the company. If they asked me to do something borderline, that isn't breaking any crimes, I'll do it. That's what this was. A guy that was being loyal and I understand.

I guess I would say that one of the reasons to want Hinch is because he has experience with the role of manager integrated with a more top down structure. Him being used to not having full control of personnel on field decisions and development is a feature not a bug. But it was in a skeezy, but successful org, and he’s coming from that. I just don’t want Sox hiring the last of the superstar managers. Get a guy that will get out of your way, even if he is so spineless he doesn’t object to cheating he felt was wrong.

If he were truly against it (he wasn't) he could have started by not being a smug dickbag when questioned about it. He could have refused to answer the questions or given non-answers which would have led to more questions and possibly an investigation which he would have wanted if he was really against it (he wasn't). He handeled the situation in the worst possible way it could have been handeled. He's a weasel.

Yeah. Imagine you're an engineer working for a chemical company that's dumping toxins into the Mississippi or something like that. You go to the CEO and ask him to stop, you're told to FO. Are you going to risk your career to narc on them? More serious situation. (this actually happened with 3M btw, but nobody stepped forward until the EPA busted them)

Read up on Tony LaRussas history on these topics and explain to me how incident after incident doesn't add up to anything in your eyes. It isn't once. It isn't twice. It's a history. For some that history doesn't seem like a bad thing, and actually buy into his way of thinking, and how easily it has been mobilized to set a faction of the USA against the black population of this country. It's the same playbook that has been utilized for centuries now, but people keep lapping it up. Code words, stereotypes, fear of large groups of black people, etc. Gets you pointing the finger at them instead of hearing their anger and fears. Yeah, when it comes to an issue like this, I am not going to pretend to respect people who utilize racism to further themselves politically, and those who lap it up at their boots. TLR has a history here. And it extensively put him on the other side of the black athletes. It isn't even just the anthem either. If don't want to see it, you never will. Let's face it, when MLK wrote his letter about the white moderate, the letter was meant for the 60s, but it is timeless.

Nah, we should totally let racists beliefs be. No one gets hurt by it.

Imagine not recognizing the growth the White Sox have had over the last year instead of trying to substitute bitterness from something that isn't applicable to what is being talked about here. It is Executive of the year.

Zaleski makes sense. I would like that. Curt Hasler ( fixed the name spelling ) is basically Don Cooper. They have similar beliefs and is not a move in a different direction.

I actually would be in favor of bringing in Roberts. First of all, he has a .614 winning percentage in his career as a manger (6 seasons, 2 teams). Won five division championships and 2 pennants in that span. After what we have experienced in the last 15 years, if people are saying they wouldn’t take that over the next 6 years, you are just being silly! In the various playoff appearances ... His team lost in the World Series to a team of players that knew what pitchers were coming (in 7 games). After winning 106 games in 2019, they lost in the NLDS 5 games, losing to Strasburg, Scherzer and on a crazy 10th inning Grand Slam. This season, his MVP player (Cody Bellinger) was absolute crap most of the season, and definitely in the playoffs. Clayton Kershaw, the best left-handed pitcher of this generation, simply turns to mush in all of the post-seasons. I don’t think any of the blunders have been a direct result of his actions. Meaning, in the games I have watched, he hasn’t brought in a starting pitcher fresh off the IL in a bases loaded jam against the games hottest hitter in the 7th inning, etc. Hire Dave Roberts, entice Joc Peterson to come with him. Throw all the remaining available money at Trevor Bauer and Liam Hendricks. Championship!

It's so hard. On one hand you have a survey of baseball executives and Hahns peers who do this job for a living, understanding his job in intimate detail. On the other hand this guy on the internet thinks we should hold 2013 against Hahn.

No, not really. A 2/3 IMO.

The numbers have done nothing but accelerate since school started, but that isn't the problem. Sure. Lol, right. People want to believe so bad they just buy anything. Literally every time we loosen restrictions and open up, numbers go back up.

I'm surprised the fake names didn't include Drs. "Howard, Fine and Howard." Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard.

2012-2016: F- 2017-2019: B+ 2020: B 2021: A+ (Cooper and Ricky) Will be able to evaluate his tenure at the end, and hope it does include division titles and at least one AL Pennant / World Series win. The next 3-5 years will determine whether he can build a team capable of competing for a title, he has a few years to build a staff capable of competing. His moves his first four years were mostly bad, Keuchel was a good signing, time will tell if Grandal can work well with Giolito and others. His two main avenues to build this team, an open international free agent bidding process (Abreu and Robert) and tanking trades (Eloy, Giolito, Moncada) are not available at this point. Anderson is the one outstanding draft pick so far at the ML level, though his recent picks look promising (Madrigal, Vaughn and Crochet).

Incomplete. He continues to talk about sustained success and multiple championships. He's got a long way to go to accomplish what he set as goals . Step 2 is make the playoffs 2 years in a row and advance to the ALCS or beyond.

Uh yeah the national media, team media and entire Sox fanbase called Renteria into question as it was clear he exposed this season as in over his head. If you wanna believe the TV analyst is the front office mouthpiece then I'm not gonna stop you.

I am shocked that Reinsdorf is willing to let go of Renteria (who still had another year on his contract) and pay top dollar for a Hinch/Cora given the pandemic and his complaints about his finances. Today's news has made me much more optimistic about the Sox free agent spending.

That wasn't what you argued. You argued, "NO one in all of baseball was willing to touch Puig last year, including every single general manager that people drool over." I think based on what The Athletic, and Forbes, and Atlanta Business Chronicle, and others had reported, that your statement absolutely was not true. So, if you don't like Puig [which certainly, many don't], then suggest another potential addition that also provides some or most of the 6 factual points I mentioned above. I don't think Puig is a star, but I also don't think he's an arch-criminal. I think he provides potential surplus value relative to his contract, plus the freedom to make other additions in this offseason/next trade deadline/next offseason, without much in terms of acquisition cost.

Is that actually true? The Athletic reported that Puig was going to be signed by Atlanta, but he tested positive for COVID. Regardless, if you're so adamantly against Puig, find us another actual RFer: 1. with a career wrc+ vs RHP of 130 [Better than Abreu, Grandal, Encarnacion, Mazara, as well as Brantley and Pederson], AND 2. mostly- positive DRS at RF, AND 3. not horribly injury-prone, AND 4. not ancient/whose career is on fumes due to Father Time taking away his abilities, AND 5. at a salary price point that will also enable this team to add enough SP depth to push Cease [and his horrifying BB/9 of 5.25] down to Charlotte, AND 6. not cost us trade assets for future acquisitions?

In order for something like this to work, the entire team has to be in on it. To have relievers in the mind set to be ready in the early innings the team had to be in on it, otherwise these guys wouldn't have been ready to work. There is no doubt in my mind that Dunning went out there knowing that as soon as he got into trouble, he was done, and everyone from Crochet down the line knew they could be in the game at literally any time. And if people still think this is outrageous, look no further than the San Diego wild card series. They used 26 pitchers to cover 27 innings. Their starters went a total of 6 innings in the three games combined. Their starters went 2.1, 2 and 1.2. This strategy can and does work. The primary reason it failed for the Sox was that Crochet got hurt, and then the guys they were hoping could suck up innings couldn't find the strike zone in Rodon and Foster. The Padres relievers made it work, while the Sox didn't. That doesn't make the strategy invalid.

People here would have gone nuts if he had given up a 3 run bomb.

So in No.1 you ,mention 3 pitchers and all 3 weren't available. Detwiler was replaced by Rodon as you noted so bringing him up makes no sense. Gio was injured and didn't make the playoff roster. Cease had pitched in relief the day before. Lopez didn't make the playoff roster. No one wanted Rodon to pitch let alone start. How you can say Dunning was distracted and or confidence ruined is pure speculation.He was fully aware that a shaky start could get him an early hook. You weren't there. You weren't inside his head and there's no way you can say it had anything to do with the offense. If the offense was effected how in the heck does it jump out to a 3-0 lead ? Robert looked very effected hitting that 487 ft. HR and I saw Dunning smiling in the dugout looking pretty damn happy to see that HR. These arguments are ridiculous. 2. Why would Crochet follow him up? The game plan is your answer . Start a RH pitcher follow him up him a LH hopefully negating the LH power of the A's. No one cared if Crochet was an inexperienced rookie straight out of college. Everyone was excited to see him pitch just as they were in his earlier games. Were you complaining at any point on this board about him being on the team or pitching when he was throwing 101/102 MPH in his previous games or questioning why he was on the team ? If the answer to that is no , then questioning it now is pure unadulterated 100% hindsight . It is the whole reason he didn't pitch in the 1st 2 games. Crochet was not overused. He hadn't pitched in the 1st 2 games because they had plans for him in this game. He pitched 6 innings in the regular season. He pitched in Schaumburg which probably is a lot less stressful than pitching in minor league games. If you are going to follow the RH Dunning with LH's your choices are Bummer , Crochet, Rodon and Fry. Pick one besides Crochet the Sox were prepared to pitch right after Dunning. You draft guys to use them . If all the coaches thought he was good enough to play in the big leagues then he should be in the big leagues. He wanted to help the Sox in the playoffs that you can be sure of. He hadn't allowed a run in his previous 6 innings and struck out 2 of 2 once he came in the game. The results speak for themselves. The only possible thing you could say is to start Foster or Heuer all rookies with less experience starting then Dunning who all would've been on equally short leashes. Anyone who started knew what was at stake and the possibilities of an early exit . Destroyed confidence ? A distraction , effecting the offense ? Please this is the weakest sauce ever and I don't care what Frank Thomas thinks.