Could Getz Have an Actual Master Plan?

[Tnetennba]

Holy s%*# we need actual baseball to talk about...

[WestEddy]

46 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Yet none of those players were actually around for the WS team.  Cameron had been traded for Konerko six freaking years earlier.  Lee was traded for Scottie Pods in the offseason.  It was just a series of moves that all panned out for one season.  There was no rebuild.  If there was a rebuild, the team shouldn’t have fallen apart after just one more season.

If there was a rebuild, the team shouldn't have fallen apart? LOL. Do you even know what you're talking about? They didn't "fall apart after just one more season". That team had a down season in 2007, then won the Central again in 2008. You seem to think that "competing" means winning multiple championships in a row. 

[Tony]

39 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

As Kenny called it when they moved Lee for Pods, it was a reshuffle. Their offense, while incredibly powerful was stagnant. They changed the build up of the team and it worked. 

I won't stand for the shade being thrown at the '05 sox. That was no fluke and those guys were dudes and that team was built beautifully.

This has been a debate for basically the last decade, but I think the argument is a fairly simple one. 

The 2005 White Sox were an absolute force and absolutely deserved to win the World Series based on their play. 

However, coming into the 2005 season, there were not waves of predictions they were a World Series caliber team, from fans or media members. 
 

- A 31 year old Jermaine Dye doubled his WAR from 2004

- Podsednik had a 1.7 WAR in 2005, up from 0.6 in 2004 (He played in 25 more games in 2004!)

- From 2002-2004, Konerko put up a 3.8 WAR total. In 2004 he had a 4 WAR season. 

- Two guys who I consider some of the most important guys in 2005, Politte and Cotts, came out of absolute NO WHERE and both had WARs over 2 as RPs. 

I could go on. There were a few guys that actually had somewhat down years from where they were before (Rowand, Frank obviously) but generally speaking, a lot had to come together from some unexpected places for 2005 to be as memorable as it was. That is often the case for World Series teams, but as history unfortunately showed us, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 weren’t playoff teams. It was a magical season, but the key word there is “season.” It lasted a year. 

[WestEddy]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You insinuated that the White Flag trade, as it was known, helped lead them. Caruso had that one year he had 700 infield hits, but then he was done. Howry was trade for Frank Francisco. Keith foulke was a guy no doubt, but they traded three MLB starters for 1 closer lol and that's why they succeeded??

Yeah, I just reread my posts, and don't see anywhere that I said the white flag trade was the major reason they won the World Series in 2005. So, I hope you find the guy who said that and set him straight. 

Trading Alvarez and Hernandez pulled the plug on the frustrating 97 season. Guillen and Davey Martinez were gone after that year, and Ventura and Belle gone after 98. That jump started the rebuild that would see Cameron traded for Konerko, and Ordonez, Lee and Singleton become the outfield.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Yeah, I just reread my posts, and don't see anywhere that I said the white flag trade was the major reason they won the World Series in 2005. So, I hope you find the guy who said that and set him straight. 

Trading Alvarez and Hernandez pulled the plug on the frustrating 97 season. Guillen and Davey Martinez were gone after that year, and Ventura and Belle gone after 98. That jump started the rebuild that would see Cameron traded for Konerko, and Ordonez, Lee and Singleton become the outfield.

The starting rotation and bullpen was 70% of that win...and the ability to manufacture runs with Pods and Iguchi until Pods wore down over the last couple of months physically.

Hermanson held down the fort until Jenks took over late.

Even McCarthy made some key late starts.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Are you completely clueless as to modern lingo?  I’m not 70 yet but I am pretty sure I understood what he was getting at.

No GM that just set a record for futility should be fluffed and stroked as much as Getz is by some.

Oh wait, I’m being homophobic and calling Getz gay!  🤣

He basically did a " That's so gay " workaround, saying it without actually saying it. There were ad campaigns against that stuff 16 years ago by Hillary Duff and Wanda Sykes. It's grade school tactics using it as a negative connotation. Maybe you should try to get with the times. You seem to be the only one who thought it was funny judging by your emoji on the post.

It's actually good positive baseball discussion that people can voice that they see a smidgeon of light at the end of the tunnel in the near term for the long term health of the organization . And there are quite a few of us judging by the positive responses to @Timmy U post. If anyone wants to try to put their grade school ,bullying, out of date sophomoric humor boot to that positivity then figure out another way to do it.

Edited January 12 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He basically did a " That's so gay " workaround, saying it without actually saying it. There were ad campaigns against that stuff 16 years ago by Hillary Duff and Wanda Sykes. It's grade school tactics using it as a negative connotation. Maybe you should try to get with the times. You seem to be the only one who thought it was funny judging by your emoji on the post.

I’d rather not live my life by what Hillary Duff and Wanda Sykes think, but you go ahead.

Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023

[Dick Allen]

I am at the point where I need to be shown progress not just get excited by some words during a softball interview. Obviously one is a little more serious than the other, but hearing that things are going to change is like hearing an alcoholic tell you they will now stop drinking , or a drug addict saying they will stay clean after countless times you have heard it before. I will believe it when I see it. Assuming they will f*** it up has been well earned. JR teams don’t usually have a formula for sustained success. It’s usually pissed away fairly quickly. I hope I am so wrong this time. Just remember he called the new hitting director the Brian Bannister of hitting. I guess the White Sox and their fans were just lucky Baltimore fired him.

Edited January 12 by Dick Allen

[Highland]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I am at the point where I need to be shown progress not just get excited by some words during a softball interview. Obviously one is a little more serious than the other, but hearing that things are going to change is like hearing an alcoholic tell you they will now stop drinking , or a drug addict saying they will stay clean after countless times you have heard it before. I will believe it when I see it. Assuming they will f*** it up has been well earned. JR teams don’t usually have a formula for sustained success. It’s usually pissed away fairly quickly. I hope I am so wrong this time.

I agree. Sox rebuilds have had some success, but since 2008 the franchise has floundered. And 121 losses is not showing any progress.

Things don't seem right. The team has a detached CEO and a GM who knows he will have little financial backing. We fans can't expect much for the next two seasons at least. Is there any reason to be optimistic? There is some hope, but I have almost no expectations. It is pretty bad when fans think 70 wins is a good season. Real success seems so far away. 

[Snopek]

Well this thread went about as well as expected

[FloydBannister1983]

2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I’d rather not live my life by what Hillary Duff and Wanda Sykes think, but you go ahead.

I'm not sure referencing Hillary Duff and Wanda Sykes is the own he thinks it is.

[FloydBannister1983]

1 hour ago, Highland said:

I agree. Sox rebuilds have had some success, but since 2008 the franchise has floundered. And 121 losses is not showing any progress.

Things don't seem right. The team has a detached CEO and a GM who knows he will have little financial backing. We fans can't expect much for the next two seasons at least. Is there any reason to be optimistic? There is some hope, but I have almost no expectations. It is pretty bad when fans think 70 wins is a good season. Real success seems so far away. 

Also there is nothing in the GM's career to suggest that if he did have the financial backing he could put together a master plan that would actually work.

[southsider2k5]

15 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

If you think that was a homophobic comment or that @southsider2k5 was calling Getz a homosexual, you need to get out more.

Some people just need to be offended to feel alive.  As usual it is such an absurd over reaction to a made up. offense. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I am at the point where I need to be shown progress not just get excited by some words during a softball interview. Obviously one is a little more serious than the other, but hearing that things are going to change is like hearing an alcoholic tell you they will now stop drinking , or a drug addict saying they will stay clean after countless times you have heard it before. I will believe it when I see it. Assuming they will f*** it up has been well earned. JR teams don’t usually have a formula for sustained success. It’s usually pissed away fairly quickly. I hope I am so wrong this time. Just remember he called the new hitting director the Brian Bannister of hitting. I guess the White Sox and their fans were just lucky Baltimore fired him.

This was literally my point, and I think it was obvious to most.

[Chicago White Sox]

16 hours ago, Tony said:

This has been a debate for basically the last decade, but I think the argument is a fairly simple one. 

The 2005 White Sox were an absolute force and absolutely deserved to win the World Series based on their play. 

However, coming into the 2005 season, there were not waves of predictions they were a World Series caliber team, from fans or media members. 
 

- A 31 year old Jermaine Dye doubled his WAR from 2004

- Podsednik had a 1.7 WAR in 2005, up from 0.6 in 2004 (He played in 25 more games in 2004!)

- From 2002-2004, Konerko put up a 3.8 WAR total. In 2004 he had a 4 WAR season. 

- Two guys who I consider some of the most important guys in 2005, Politte and Cotts, came out of absolute NO WHERE and both had WARs over 2 as RPs. 

I could go on. There were a few guys that actually had somewhat down years from where they were before (Rowand, Frank obviously) but generally speaking, a lot had to come together from some unexpected places for 2005 to be as memorable as it was. That is often the case for World Series teams, but as history unfortunately showed us, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 weren’t playoff teams. It was a magical season, but the key word there is “season.” It lasted a year. 

The 2006 White Sox won 90 games…I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the best team to not make the playoffs in the Wild Card era.  Unfortunately they came in short of expectations because the pitching staff was so worn down, but it was an extremely talented club.  KW going out and getting Thome & Vasquez was awesome (despite the issues with the latter) and I will forever miss his aggressiveness.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am at the point where I need to be shown progress not just get excited by some words during a softball interview. Obviously one is a little more serious than the other, but hearing that things are going to change is like hearing an alcoholic tell you they will now stop drinking , or a drug addict saying they will stay clean after countless times you have heard it before. I will believe it when I see it. Assuming they will f*** it up has been well earned. JR teams don’t usually have a formula for sustained success. It’s usually pissed away fairly quickly. I hope I am so wrong this time. Just remember he called the new hitting director the Brian Bannister of hitting. I guess the White Sox and their fans were just lucky Baltimore fired him.

I hate even typing this, but we have seen some progress in terms of breaking up the insular nature of the org.  Haber, Paddy, KW Jr, multiple long time pro scouts all gone and new people brought in.  He’s added leadership positions in the front office to help build out pitching & hitting strategies.  It sounds like there have been big changes in our analytics department.  We also know that functions are now working with each other and not operating as silos.  Will those efforts ultimately right the ship?  Impossible for us to say, but it’s clear Getz is doing things differently than KW & Hahn and that’s a start.

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I hate even typing this, but we have seen some progress in terms of breaking up the insular nature of the org.  Haber, Paddy, KW Jr, multiple long time pro scouts all gone and new people brought in.  He’s added leadership positions in the front office to help build out pitching & hitting strategies.  It sounds like there have been big changes in our analytics department.  We also know that functions are now working with each other and not operating as silos.  Will those efforts ultimately right the ship?  Impossible for us to say, but it’s clear Getz is doing things differently than KW & Hahn and that’s a start.

For some reason, in sports talk, skepticism is interpreted as smart, and enthusiasm is interpreted as dumb. People will pose as skeptical until a core of the two Montys, Smith, Schultz, Teel/Quero and others win their 2nd World Series (because the 1st will be deemed a "fluke" in skeptic parlance). 

As you said, Getz has overhauled or created many key departments, and processes for interaction between them. He has telegraphed a "type" of prospect he's targeting, focusing on OBP. A 60 win season will be treated as an abomination, an 81 win 2026 as underachieving, and an 86 win 2027 as a travesty of half measures. 

It's boring. 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

29 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

For some reason, in sports talk, skepticism is interpreted as smart, and enthusiasm is interpreted as dumb. People will pose as skeptical until a core of the two Montys, Smith, Schultz, Teel/Quero and others win their 2nd World Series (because the 1st will be deemed a "fluke" in skeptic parlance). 

As you said, Getz has overhauled or created many key departments, and processes for interaction between them. He has telegraphed a "type" of prospect he's targeting, focusing on OBP. A 60 win season will be treated as an abomination, an 81 win 2026 as underachieving, and an 86 win 2027 as a travesty of half measures. 

It's boring. 

 

There’s no way they win 81 games in 2026 if they continue shopping in the free agent dollar store.

[Dick Allen]

52 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I hate even typing this, but we have seen some progress in terms of breaking up the insular nature of the org.  Haber, Paddy, KW Jr, multiple long time pro scouts all gone and new people brought in.  He’s added leadership positions in the front office to help build out pitching & hitting strategies.  It sounds like there have been big changes in our analytics department.  We also know that functions are now working with each other and not operating as silos.  Will those efforts ultimately right the ship?  Impossible for us to say, but it’s clear Getz is doing things differently than KW & Hahn and that’s a start.

He changed it, but all we know is it's different.  We don't know if it's right.  The Bears swapped out their Ryan's and Matt's a few years ago. It hasn't meant better results. I still think Getz wasn't the right guy for the job. I know it was everyone else's fault he couldn't develop s%*#, but he should have some responsibility,  or wlwehe was just a coffee boy, and even less qualified for his current position. 

[SoxBlanco]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He changed it, but all we know is it's different.  We don't know if it's right.  The Bears swapped out their Ryan's and Matt's a few years ago. It hasn't meant better results. I still think Getz wasn't the right guy for the job. I know it was everyone else's fault he couldn't develop s%*#, but he should have some responsibility,  or wlwehe was just a coffee boy, and even less qualified for his current position. 

Isn’t it possible for someone to be bad at directing player development but better at GM? They are two different jobs. It’s certainly possible that Getz is bad at both, but just because he failed at one position doesn’t mean he will automatically fail at the other. 

And I’m not directing this at you, DA. I’ve just seen several people point out his failure at player development the last few years as if it’s clear indicator of his ability as a GM. 

[Tony]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The 2006 White Sox won 90 games…I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the best team to not make the playoffs in the Wild Card era.  Unfortunately they came in short of expectations because the pitching staff was so worn down, but it was an extremely talented club.  KW going out and getting Thome & Vasquez was awesome (despite the issues with the latter) and I will forever miss his aggressiveness.

Of course it was extremely talented, but it speaks to my original point. 2005 everything came together perfectly, and a number of guys basically emptied their gas tanks for that season. 

End of the day, they won the World Series in 2005, and were third in their division in 2006. And as we know, 2005 is the only season in the last 100 years they have won a playoff series. So I’m not going to the take the advice of someone else on this board and be thankful for the wonderful ownership of Jerry Reinsdorf, or anyone that came before him. This is an embarrassingly bad franchise most of us were unfortunately born into. 

[Tony]

25 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Isn’t it possible for someone to be bad at directing player development but better at GM? They are two different jobs. It’s certainly possible that Getz is bad at both, but just because he failed at one position doesn’t mean he will automatically fail at the other. 

And I’m not directing this at you, DA. I’ve just seen several people point out his failure at player development the last few years as if it’s clear indicator of his ability as a GM. 

I don’t think it has to be a clear indicator, and I know we are beating a dead horse here, but given his lack of success in his previous role, it’s hard for many fans to fathom (myself included) that he was not only promoted, but the Sox didn’t interview anyone for the role. They have admitted that. Even the biggest Getz supporters have very little to cite when it comes to what he has excelled at as a baseball executive, yet he was given one of the most prestigious jobs in sports, and didn’t have to compete with anyone for the job. 
 

The cherry on top, of course, is the reason Jerry cited in hiring Getz was he “didn’t want to waste a year.” Coming off of that statement, all they did was set the major league record for worst season of all time. Just great work all around. Yet some can’t wrap their head around the skepticism White Sox fans have with their favorite team.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

It's boring. 

 

You are an optimistic fan. I'd venture to say most Sox fans either are upset or totally have moved on and do not care and would never ever consider going to a game unless it was some special occasion: free tickets in prime location, free parking. I don't live in Chicago but I'd assume there's general who cares malaise about our Sox. Am I correct?

[SoxBlanco]

9 minutes ago, Tony said:

I don’t think it has to be a clear indicator, and I know we are beating a dead horse here, but given his lack of success in his previous role, it’s hard for many fans to fathom (myself included) that he was not only promoted, but the Sox didn’t interview anyone for the role. They have admitted that. Even the biggest Getz supporters have very little to cite when it comes to what he has excelled at as a baseball executive, yet he was given one of the most prestigious jobs in sports, and didn’t have to compete with anyone for the job. 
 

The cherry on top, of course, is the reason Jerry cited in hiring Getz was he “didn’t want to waste a year.” Coming off of that statement, all they did was set the major league record for worst season of all time. Just great work all around. Yet some can’t wrap their head around the skepticism White Sox fans have with their favorite team.

I definitely agree with everything you said. And I’m not even a Getz supporter. I was angry that they didn’t look outside the organization for a new GM. But what I described in my previous post has always bothered me. 

[Bob Sacamano]

26 minutes ago, Tony said:

Of course it was extremely talented, but it speaks to my original point. 2005 everything came together perfectly, and a number of guys basically emptied their gas tanks for that season. 

End of the day, they won the World Series in 2005, and were third in their division in 2006. And as we know, 2005 is the only season in the last 100 years they have won a playoff series. So I’m not going to the take the advice of someone else on this board and be thankful for the wonderful ownership of Jerry Reinsdorf, or anyone that came before him. This is an embarrassingly bad franchise most of us were unfortunately born into. 

No matter how much talent you have, you need luck to win it all.