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Caulfield: God help the Sox if they do these things. Also Caulfield: The under .500 Padres might be ok next year due to a AA pitcher that regressed and several pitchers coming back from severe injuries.

ok caulfield

I mean, sure, in hindsight this all seems crystal clear, but: - Is a 0.52 ERA sustainable? Probably not. But I'd argue that just as few people anticipated an ERA over 5 the rest of the way. - I feel like the closer vs non-closer argument didn't really gain traction until well after the trade when we were looking for answers for his struggles. - He had 39 appearances in the 2021 season with the Cubs, but only 19 of those were vs the NL Central. And if you want to remove the Reds from that, as your point indicates, 14 of his 39 appearances were against the rest of the weak hitting NL Central. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=kimbrcr01&t=p&year=2021 Was it a bad trade? Of course. It turned out to be an absolutely awful trade. You could argue they gave up too much, ignored larger areas of need at the deadline in favor of this, and stubbornly mismanaged Kimbrel down the stretch and I'd completely agree with you. But I'm not on board with the argument that they should have foreseen this type of implosion coming for the reasons you say.

Situated just blocks from the west coast of Lake Michigan . . .

If we sign a LEGIT RF or 2B, I am fine with the other being in-house or dumpster dive signing. Ala, if we sign Semien for 2B, I am fine with Engel/Sheets. If we sign Conforto, I am fine with Leury/Romy/Hernandez

So now you are saying the advanced metrics are wrong and the eye test is correct? People make him out to be Yermin Mercedes behind the plate, yet his advanced metrics say he is way better than that. This was the first season since 2013 he didnt throw out baserunners at an above average rate. Plus he was injured for probably the whole year. I am glad the Sox have him. He is the best Sox catcher since Carlton Fisk, and Fisk was only better than the beat up 2021 Grandal a couple of seasons, if that. If Yas is a problem, the White Sox have nothing to worry about.

Sorry but have to get back on Grandal topic. You can quote war or whatever stats you want, but Grandal is absolutely horrible on defense, horrible. This didn’t become clear until we heard other announcers beyond Steve and Jason not just telling the management line. Didn’t I hear, pretty sure I did, that this year Sox were last in the majors in both passed balls and wild pitches (in other words, pitches in the dirt that Grandal didn't block). Last in baseball. Also, didn’t I also hear that Sox were worst in majors at throwing out base stealers. Pretty sure I heard that too. Now I know pitchers have to hold runners close, but still most of that is still on the catcher. Last in pass balls/ wild pitches and last in throwing out runners, last; but yet somehow according to war or some other stat, Grandal is a good defensive catcher. How is that possible? When we complain about bad trade or signings, signing Grandal and chasing out McCanns has to be near the top.

When pitchers can't throw breaking pitches because the catcher cannot handle them it becomes an issue.

Dude. A subscription to The Athletic is so cheap. I don't know how any fan that consumes sports media doesn't already have a subscription. It's excellent.

Sox fans would say he doesn't walk enough. I looked up his trade info, and Miami traded Duval for a journeyman catcher named Alex Jackson. Not sure what Miami/Jeter were thinking.

I consider all of this to be completely your opinion. My opinion is that he’s the best catcher I’ve ever seen play for the Sox. I was alive for Fisk but my only real memories were mainly centered around ordering The Carlton Fisk n Chips from the Charley Horse in Orland.

Another Leury with elite defense but limited offense...and isn't an outfielder.

That's the larger problem, even when they make correct - looking FA moves and "win the offseason," the subsequent results haven't matched the hype...from Dunn to Cabrera/Robertson/La Roche all the way through the trade deadline this year. The exceptions being the Big 3 trades for prospects and then Luis Robert, as well as intl. free agents like Abreu. And, this past year, pretty much nobody thought adding Eaton was wise. The biggest move in retaining Rodon was the least expected to pan out but lowest risk at least. And then Lynn, but his repeatability late career now is up in the air, just like Keuchel's.

Yep, $22.5M is his tag plus $1M 2023 buyout. 2B plus RF are holes, but they remain holes with Profar and or Myers. Rather have the flexibility to sign a solid FA option, then sign Kimbrel and flip for expensive garbage. Kimbrel should be good next year, now that he built his innings back up. However, it makes no sense to keep him in terms of roster construction. You can’t spend $30M-$35m on a bullpen unless you’re the Dodgers / well over $200M. That’s been my primary concern with the Grandal signing ($18.3M of a $120M-$140M payroll). More palatable if they bump total payroll to the $180M-$200M range.

Just googled Preller. He is one good looking dude.

I thought it went without saying that the last question was a joke But in all seriousness, it is striking that the board has gone from pining for Springer plus Bauer to hoping we can just sign Michael Conforto. The chasm between hope and reality has narrowed considerably.

Sir, have you met us and/or the White Sox front office? In the unlikely scenario they make the correct moves, people here will not be happy.

I think a lot of other MLB teams agree with you.

I think when you compare Grandal to Collins and/or Zavala, he looks amazing. But I’d rather have an average bat behind the plate who is a GG fielder, which he is not.

I can just see Rick Hahn giving a shoutout to Soxtalk in the presser. Lol

Better suggestion is for you to put a in sock in these attention-seeking smears of one of the most highly-regarded Sox players of all time.

First off, it's $16 million. Secondly, they have a closer. Thirdly, unlike the Cubs, they can re-direct that money elsewhere. The Cubs were dumping salary. Hopefully, the White Sox are not. I am not a Kimbrel hater. I liked that they acquired him. I didn't like what they paid, and I always was convinced they weren't going to keep him around for 2022. I assumed he would be decent enough to get something. But now, if I am a team looking for a closer, I am not giving up a decent package and paying the freight. I will wait until April or May and see how he's doing, and see how desperate KW and RH are about their over $30 million 8th and 9th innings. I can only remember a couple of easy innings he had in a White Sox uniform.

A coach leaving is a big deal? If the hitting coaches left, so what? And if they want to blame Daryl Boston for Eloy not being an elite defender, fine. You'll get Dave McKay. They aren't going to get rid of anyone who made much of a difference.

The Cubs released Schwarber because they didn't want to pay him $8M. He went on to have a monster season and they just let him walk out the door for nothing. It was an incredibly short-sighted decision because they were scared of the money. If the Sox decline Kimbrel's option and let him walk out the door for nothing they would be making the same stupid mistake the Cubs made. I don't think they're going to be that short-sighted.

What does “evaluating the team” mean in this context and why does it take so long?

Nah, I liked the Kimbrel trade and drank the kool-aid. Whoops. You also posted this in October, well after the Padres pitching staff was shown to be horrendous. And the Padres won a playoff series in 2020, great. They finished under .500 and have Myers/Hosmer ($82.5M vs. $34M owed to Keuchel and Kimbrel), articles are coming out about how Preller looks like a batshit crazy man, they're going to lose one of their prospects to dump Hosmer. Don't forget Tatis is likely going to miss time with shoulder surgery. But don't worry, their pitching staff will be just fine, because of a bunch of dudes with either Tommy John or other injuries. They did a great job of rebuilding their innings this year.

Yes, people, what’s wrong with you! How dare you sh*t on another one of ron’s pathetic attempts to sh*t on one of the White Sox’ most productive and respected players of all time! Can’t you just indulge him on his odd desire to see Pito’s “upcoming demise”? It’s what he seemingly wants more than anything else White Sox-related, so give the man what he wants! 🙄

Did you call the Kimbrel trade a mistake the day it was made? Go back and review that thread as well. Point 2, hard to control for having two subpar managers and counting that are controlled by the GM and essentially picked for "manageability" by the front office, the polar opposite of the White Sox issue with TLR and Hahn. And the Padres can at least argue they won a playoff series, even though their collapse from 17 games over makes the White Sox temporarily look like the smarter organization...but they still definitely have some room to maneuver with their farm system. That said, they have to deal Myers/Hosmer/maybe Darvish or Frazier to get some breathing room financially. So do the White Sox, with Kimbrel and Keuchel on the books. And one can argue they could have sat back like the White Sox if they didn't have the strongest franchise in baseball in front of them, not that Hahn didn't make a similar mistake chasing after veterans to get the Sox over the top, as well. Preller is the only GM to do worse than Hahn at the trade deadline, and he paid dearly for it. All the swirling rumors unconsummated created an irreparable clubhouse rift and split playing time without addressing the rotation...whereas we didn't add Marte or Bryant, etc. Finally, the Giants have nothing to show for such a historic season, either, in the end. It's all about coming out on top in the postseason.

Watching the games it was a much bigger factor than that number shows.

Vaughn, Burger, Dalquist or Thompson and Adolfo for Bryan Reynolds. I know that probably doesn't get it done...but one thing that would- Crochet & Vaughn. Eloy, Robert, Reynolds is by far the best outfield in baseball in all aspects. Bryan is a switch hitter, and he is about to get expensiveish so you know Pirates will be listening. Eloy can move to DH or even 1st base IF Cespedes figures things out for 2023 and while losing Vaughn will suck, as long as Pito is on this team he has no place. Burger is gone since Montgomery and Kath are the future 3B / SS depth and Yoan and Anderson are locked until that happens. If Crochet isn't in the rotation by mid next season...what is really his value? what a mismanagement by the FO and capitalize now if you can. I hate to have to push the deal to reality with Garrett, but Reynolds solves almost every need and you go cheap on the 2nd base option then.

Merkin confirmed Boob's report that Sox will pick up Kimbrel's option. Didn't opine on trading him, but I think its safe to assume that is plan. Seemed noteworthy enough to bump this thread as many felt Sox will/should buy him out, and obviously, Boob isn't the most trustworthy reporter around.

And our major league scouts missed major league problems with the guys we paid a lot more for.

We actually have a trade comp that is somewhat recent. Abreu has outperformed Anthony Rizzo the last 2 seasons but Rizzo was better in 2019, and their salaries are comparable. Rizzo is a lefty and that filled a major need for the Yankees. Rizzo returned a 24 year old injured pitcher from their 40 man roster with a career minor league ERA of 5 and a BB/9 IP this year of just about 9, and a 19 year old international signing from A-Ball who had solid numbers this year but who averages under 2 pitches per plate appearance so he has some work to do before having a game that will translate to the big leagues. That would have been a fine return for the 2016 White Sox for a player, but it’s hard to see how that return would make a substantial dent in the 2022 White Sox.

I will add if there’s a way to somehow retain Rodon & sign Conforto, that would be beyond amazing and I’d totally be ok with dumpster diving at 2B and the final spot or two in the bullpen.

Ok. Since 2019, Grandal ranks: WAR: 2nd Defensive Rating: 7th GP: 4th You and Rob might want to find a different player to me statistically wrong criticisms about

Your OPINION runs contrary to basic stats. Since 2015, Grandal ranks among MLB C WAR: 1st Defensive Rating (Fangraphs): 1st Games Played: 3rd Yeah that definitely sounds like the injury prone, horrible defensive catcher we should trade away, lol

They also had Smith and Smyly. Just sayin.

Can we get a new hitting coach please? One that shows these guys how to hit the ball in the air?

just imagine the shitstorm if they were cheating again, i dont think they are, but that would be the biggest news story in american sports history

They signed Eaton on December 10. For $8M guaranteed. And cut him with pay in mid July. Eloy is not an OF. If he can't DH, move him while he still has value.

Agree. Plus at some point Jose will retire / be let go, which would open up 1B for Vaughn and an OF spot for Cespedes / Colas. And honestly, zero problem with those guys being depth for a couple of years and having to earn spots. Would be an excellent problem to have.

Hinch should have been banned from baseball for life for managing a team he knew was cheatiing. That is potentially worse than gambling on baseball. Gambling, if one bets to lose and throws games, as was the (unproven) allegation in the Black Sox scandal, is worse, but what the Astros did was outrageous. Hinch and Cpra should not be in the league. The investigation into the Astros cheating should have been turned over to the FBI given that baseball now involves legal gambling and the implications for that cheating were far greater than they were in 1919. How about all the money law lawfully bet on games by sports betters who had no know;edge that the Astros had a decided edge from cheating? LaRussa did as well as any Manager would have given the circumstances - prominent players injured (Robert, Eloy, Madrigal, Grandal), and a pitching staff that under-performed based on expectations. That entire episode where LaRussa was upset when Mercedes ignored a take sign to show up an opponent was overblown and people who chided LaRussaa were wrong, dead wrong. Compare what Boston Manager Cora did when Rodriguez mimicked Carlos Correa last night. He . like LaRussa, did not countenance conduct by a player who took it upon himself to show up the opposition. Mercedes was actually more blatant given his refusal to obey a take sign to embellish his own statistics.

Ron this is just sad.

Not at all. No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No In a historic occurrence in an effort to continue playing baseball during a work shortage, Jerry will sign the following in order to play 2022 baseball: @Chisoxfn @CaliSoxFanViaSWside @Balta1701 @fathom @southsider2k5 @greg775 @JoeCredeYes @Greg Hibbard @queerty The following will be denied from a roster spot: @hi8is @ron883 @Tony @Jack Parkman The GM will be @WBWSF or whoever that lovely fan is that writes Jerry petitioning for an interview all the time. As such, expect the 2022 White Sox to win exactly 0 games. This is exactly how next year will go down.

This is so vomit inducing bad: https://southsideshowdown.com/2021/10/15/chicago-white-sox-3-fair-trade-packages-craig-kimbrel/amp/

What they gave up to get him does not matter. This is called the “sunk cost” fallacy. What matters now is if he is worth his option. He is not.