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The Sox have never even given lip service to vertical integration and any sort of top to bottom philosophy that they scout and then develop. The Mariners, who are the Sox' west coast doppelgänger in many ways, at least preach a "control the zone" mentality, even if they haven't been able to implement it well. From 1000ft away, it seems like the Rays really prize athletes that can play multiple positions and then they teach them to hit enough. The Sox under KW were similar, although obviously not as successful at the teaching them to hit part. The Dodgers? Well they have massive resources and it seems their MLB scouting is the best in the game by a large margin. If they acquire a vet or let one go, they almost always make the right decision. Anyways, the Sox need to clean house but for the millionth time written on this board, it won't happen until JR either dies or sells the team.

Sure, but the Sox need to: 1. Identify coachable players (with talent and upside) 2. Develop and align on a vision of where the player ought to end up, what type of pitcher the player the organization sees in the future 3. Coach consistently across all levels of the minors (and big leagues) to give a continuity of instruction Yeah, coaching starts in high school (or before), but that's not really something the Sox can control other than to assess its impact on the player at the time of acquisition.

Probably decent sized, but primary method of killing is to fly super-fast and collide with the other bird in mid air, killing it. Then he eats it. All of it -- feathers, feet, head, bones, all of it.

There are several webcams and other resources you can use to follow the Chicago area's more than 20 nesting pairs, which are believed to have come from a single pair introduced as part of an effort to bring the species back from near-extinction in the '80s. https://www.fieldmuseum.org/science/special-projects/illinois-peregrines Every time I think that life in Chicago feels drab or inconsequential, I try to remember that the world's fastest animal was brought back from the brink and now speeds over our heads while we go about our daily business, stalking their prey on thousands of years of accumulated instinct and making their homes in modern-day cliffs built by mankind.

If you bring someone in like Katz, you bring in the person (or people) who best fit the mold of the pitchers they'll be inheriting. This is likely why you often see multiple hitting / pitching coaches at the big league level. As for the vertical integration being a magic bullet... of course, the coaches, players, and scouts all have to be good enough. If you have s%*# scouts bringing in supremely talented players that don't fit any sort of development mold, that's going to overwhelm the coaching staff and confuse the players. If you have the greatest coaching staff that's perfectly aligned with the scouts, but the players suck... you can't make chicken soup out of chicken s%*#. If you have scouts bringing in the "right" players who are supremely talented into a pipeline of shitty coaches, there's no way to maximize the return on your player capital investment. Anyways, that's my arm chair quarterbacking. Clearly there's a reason I'm posting on Soxtalk and not working in professional sports, but my views are derived from what I've gathered about how winning organizations operate... and hell - even how effective corporations operate.

June 5, 1935 – White Sox rookie pitcher John Whitehead saw his eight-game winning streak to start his MLB career snapped, losing to the St. Louis Browns, 2-0. Whitehead would finish 13-13 in his rookie campaign, with 18 complete games. “Silent John” pitched in 127 games over four-plus seasons on the South Side winning 47 times before he was traded to the Browns. His 8-0 start to his big-league career was one of the best ‘beginnings’ in franchise history ranking right up there with Gary Peters going 19-8 in 1963 and James Baldwin starting out 9-1 in 1996. June 5, 1960 - Sox pitchers Russ Kemmerer and Frank Baumann both fired complete game shutouts in beating the Kansas City Athletics in a double header. The Sox won both games by the same score of 2-0. The A’s combined for only 10 hits on the Sunday afternoon. Baumann would wind up leading the league in ERA that season at 2.67 finishing 13-6. Kemmerer would fashion an ERA for the year at 2.98. June 5, 1967 - Eddie Stanky did it again. The Sox manager let loose a verbal assault on Red Sox All-Star Carl Yazstrzemski. Before a three-game set in Comiskey Park, Stanky was quoted as saying, “He may be an All-Star from the neck down but in my book he’s a moody ballplayer...and I don’t like moody ballplayers.” Red Sox fans were incensed and let Stanky and the Sox have an earful, as well as throwing tomatoes at him whenever he went to the mound when the Sox went to Boston the following week.

Thanks for getting it. The home/road stats are a statistical anomaly based on the scant evidence of less than 1/3 of a season. Lets not treat them as if they were etched in stone or established over a career's length. Play him. He wins you ball games.

51 years ago today one of the most famous home runs in Sox history took place. I was sitting in the lower right field deck and personally saw it, it was quite a moment. I've also attached some links that I provided material for honoring Dick's career on the South Side. The first is from the Chicago Baseball Museum's 40th anniversary celebration for Dick and that team. I co-hosted with Richard Roeper, the three day event. Dick was there along with Hank Allen, Bill Melton, Carlos May, Tom Bradley, Bart Johnson, "Goose" Gossage, Ed Spiezio and Roland Hemond. The second and third links are features Matt Flesch put together, Matt was the driving force behind the "Last Comiskey" documentary. You'll see actual home movie footage of the Chili Dog home run that I was able to provide to him in it. I hope you enjoy the memories: June 4, 1972 - It is forever known as the “Chili Dog Game” one of the most electrifying games ever played in team history. In the second game of a double header with the Yankees, the Sox having already won the first game 6-1, Sox manager Chuck Tanner wanted Dick Allen to be ready to pinch hit in the last of the ninth inning if needed. Allen at the time was wolfing down a chili dog since he had played in the first game, was sitting out the nightcap and was hungry. He quickly had to put on a uniform getting the last of the chili dog all over the top of it which caused the clubhouse boys to give him a new, clean jersey. With two men on and the Sox losing 4-2, Allen was called to hit. On the third pitch from future Sox relief pitcher Al “Sparky” Lyle, Allen deposited the ball into the left field lower deck for a 5-4 win and a sweep of the twin bill. A bat-day crowd of almost 52-thousand exploded. One of the greatest one-liners in Sox history took place as Lyle was walking in from the bullpen. Mike Andrews was on first base. He and Lyle were roommates when both were with the Red Sox. As Lyle approached the mound Andrews called out, “Sparky”, you’re in deep s%*# now!” As a side note, future sportscaster Keith Olbermann, a Yankee fan, wrote about listening to this game in his book that he co-authored with Dan Patrick “The Big Show”. Olbermann wrote that when Allen hit the home run, he threw his radio out of the second-floor window of his parent’s house.

Does the falcon have large talons?

Very true. As the most pro-bird at GRF fan there is, I can't help but wonder if falcons would be so necessary had they not gotten rid of the alpha goose?

He currently has more of a pulse than the AL Central.

My comment was about that it wasn't the best pitch and he still could hit it so far because of his amazing strength. But ok. if you're going to play that game then consider this. Yes, it's great that Jake got it all. However you are forgetting Lange was missing badly and both Moncada and TA took advantage of his wildness and both walked consecutively before Jake's at bat. Jake already took ball one on Lange's first pitch which was well outside. If Jake took that second pitch, it would have been ball two with the bases loaded. Jake would now be in the best hitter's pitch count and Lange now has to come with a strike with that third pitch. Jake could have also missed that pitch and now be at 1-1 without the advantage. Hell, the way Lange was missing, Jake might have been able to walk in the winning run. I am a huge Burger fan like many here, and it's great Jake caught it with a good upper cut swing. However his swings have also missed many outside pitches this year, so don't make it sound like it was a no-brainer and done deal once he made the swing.

Meh, when I was playing I had plenty of coaches I had to tune out due to bad advice/know it all attitude. I'd imagine that'd be hard for someone drafted out of college to a major league organization. You want to come in and do what you're told. There are so many levels in an mlb organization it's probably a whirlwind of info for these young players coming from guys that failed themselves. Blame to go around? Sure. But good/bad coaching matters too. Sometimes too much.

I just looked at the standings. The Sox just finished off a three game sweep, but are still nine games under .500 yet only 5 1/2 games out of first. I’ll take “Sentences that have never before been uttered” for 400 please, Alex.

I don't know about attitude or love of the game but we need more guys like Jake that hit the piss out of the ball.

Another thing: It definitely has to help team morale to have our stellar closer back. Nobody can deny he's an elite baseball pitcher, an all star. Liam's presence definitely can help this team. At 5.5 games out of first, this team actually could contend in this division if it actually got hot and everybody started to have their proverbial career year from this point on. I'm not saying the team is any good but 5.5 games out means the team actually 'could' contend. Hope the guys actually want to build on this sweep and keep competing. This horsebleep team still could finish last but it also could contend. Stay healthy liam; get your head out Timmy; figure something out, Elvis, give us 5 innings every night, 2 or 3 of u starters. Stay healthy eloy and robert and start elevating eloy. Peace out.

Burger is a good dh 1b guy.. has looked real good since spring training.

Burger is what they call country strong. The guy is built like a truck. He really got himself in great shape. You have to get him in the lineup as much as possible. He gives 100% all the time. The Sox need more players with his attitude and love of the game. The sweep was great to see but I'm not getting sucked in to being optimistic about this team. The Tigers are an awful team. The next 22 games is their toughest stretch of the season. I predict no better than 7-15.

It's also a bunch of stiffs trying to pin their failure on someone else. Fulmer has been let go by how many teams? Will no one let him long toss? I saw Clevenger long tossing before the game Friday.

Obviously it can always fail. The point is the good organizations with consistent top farm systems have a stronger scouting department which starts the entire process. They seem to identify the better prospects to suggest to the GM to ultimately draft. Of course this starts at the top and trickles down. Somehow in the Dodgers and Rays clubs for example, once they are drafted, they seem to be able to convey to the minor league director and all their coaches at each minor league level, the type of hitting and pitching fundamentals and situational pitching and hitting philosophies to teach solid baseball skills. They seem to be better at making these prospects productive and future solid big league players...for either their own team or as valuable trade bait. The fact the Sox AAA Knights at 5.91 and AA Barons at 5.77 are both dead last in team ERA in their respective minor league divisions, tells you the Sox do not have a good scouting and developing pitching prospects blueprint I realize I always use the Rays and Dodgers as prime examples of good organizations, but take a look at the last 9 years between these two clubs regarding MLB farm system rankings: Dodgers Rays 2023 #2 #6 2022 #2 #3 2021 #14 #1 2020 #9 #1 2019 #3 #2 2018 #10 #4 2017 #6 #10 2016 #1 #14 2015 #3 #11 When you have numbers like this above, it is not a fluke why both teams are usually in the playoffs most years. Maybe the day Reinsdorf is gone and a new owner comes in, we can attempt to get this type of sold organizational structure.

He passed away recently. He had a long, successful career, but what I remember vividly about him was that in 1959, he started Game 1 of the World Series between Dodgers and Sox. We won, something like 11 to 0. He was removed early., obviously. Turns out the Sox gave the LA wives tickets in the right field upper deck in old Comiskey, and when Roger struggled, the fans up there really let her have it. She had to leave, crying as she went. I never understood how fans can be that cruel. RIP Roger.

He was very good in 2022. This year he's only had a handful of starts.

Pretty sure they were the first team with blue pastel roadies which most teams were wearing by the late 1970's.

I agree to a point with you that Burger isn't a finished product and all-star yet. However he can hit for more power than anyone on this team! Period! I truly believe in time he will hit on the road as well. I'm sure a lot of his poor road hitting is just mental, where he is pushing himself too hard and being impatient at the plate. The fact is, if Pedro wants Jake to become a more consistent player, especially on the road, then Pedro needs to start playing Jake everyday and keep him at one position. You cant keep messing with a young player's mind and constantly moving him from 3B to 1B to DH to bench and and one pinch hit AB. Not to mention Pedro keeps changing his spot in the lineup.

I have been hard on Grifol but I have to admit yesterday was one of his better managing efforts. Loading up on LH bats to face Lange is exactly how you should attack him. A LH bat can track his curve a lot easier and kudos to Pedro for seizing on an opportunity and not using his LH bats earlier. And a wonderful job by Jake taking ball one. I had a feeling the minute the count was 1-0, Lange would have to throw a strike and Jake would find his pitch. Hope this and his walk earlier is an early sign of Jake maturing as a hitter. He just needs to be more selective because he murders anything middle down, especially middle out. Encouraging game all around.

Preller's gonna have to trade it all to save his job, because despite spending fat stacks of cash + three superstars + several other All-Star caliber players, they only have one more win than the White Sox. Baseball is wild.

I thnk one (or more) of the college arms are going be there at 1-15 and I hope they don't take Waldrep. I don't like amateurs who throw a split. You can multiply the injury factor by 10.

Burger should play everyday, and only get a day off when he needs one . Yankees, Marlins, Dodgers, Mariners, & Rangers ~ “Lions & Tigers & Bears, oh my!”

Tim now appears healthy and has played well the past two weeks (.746 OPS, .751 OPS last week not counting Sunday which will bump it up further since he went 2 for 4 with a walk). IL Moncada for a few weeks to recover his back. If this is going to linger the rest of the season, than platoon Moncada, play him vs. RHP and let Burger play 3B vs. LHS. Moncada would be valuable as a pinch hitter or late defensive replacement once RH relievers come in. Robert is playing a little better, but if he and Eloy can play as capable, and now you have a solid core four plus Vaughn and Burger playing well. Seby handling the best starters and Grandal contributing hitting wise with his starts, and Benintendi perhaps hitting for doubles power as the year goes on and his wrist gains strength, perhaps you have a solid enough team to to hit and field well enough to support a solid starting rotation and now a bolstered bullpen if Liam regains full Liam capabilities. Perhaps Oscar Colas gains ground and can return in July / August as an injury replacement. Have said from Opening Day the AL Central Final Standings are as follows: 78 or more wins, possibly over .500 77 wins at best 74 ish wins 70 ish wins 60 something wins

Well, except for winning three playoff series and Attendance 2018 18th/26,837 2019 14th/29,585 2020 0 2021 3rd/27,061 2022 5th/36,931 2023 5th/39,947 White Sox haven't been in the Top Ten since 2006, a full 17 years now. Once again, the 27th or 28th biggest media market in the majors. That, alone, is a major success for one of the least winning-est franchises in all of MLB since their inception. They also have a Top 5 ballpark, the weather/lifestyle to attract FA's and $20 million invested in the Gallagher Square area that will bounce back to Seidler. https://ballparkdigest.com/2023/05/30/padres-prepping-gallagher-square-renovations-for-2024/

It’s best for Burger’s long term health to avoid turning double plays at 2B. Even if Yoan was healthy all year, 26 Yoan rest days at third for Burger to play plus 100 DH games works fine. He can learn 1B and spell Vaughn as well. Sheets is the odd man out since he can’t field anywhere, and really isn’t a good enough bat to carry as a platoon only DH. He’s fine at Charlotte, and to come up if Burger or Yoan are on the IL. I’d like Hamilton or Colas up ASAP to allow proper CF coverage when Robert rests. What scares me is Grifol starting Andrus today at 3B. Outside of an emergency situation, there are no reasons to play Andrus over both Yoan and Burger. I understand trying to get him back into hitting rhythm, but Tim and Romy could rest a game a week plus late inning swap outs for 5+ run difference games should be enough. There is no reason to attempt to play Andrus as a starter or Leury like “everyday reserve”.

Sox are only 5.5 games out of first. Hilarious. Burger is for real. Seriously. He can hit. One can tell. Go ahead and trade Moncada if he won't go to second base. Burger can play an acceptable third while putting up a lot of HRs the next 7 years. 7 inning start? Glory be. His pitch count was low. Shoulda let him pitch 8 gosh forbid in 2023. Seriously folks. Burger is hitterish. He's not a fluke. His D at third is so much worse than Moncada, yes. But either trade Moncada or make Burger permanent 1B and get rid of Sheets or Vaughn. I like Vaughn but I'm pretty convinced the eye test isn't lying on Burger. Got to make room for Burger. Why are the Sox afraid of moving Moncada to 2B? He'd be great there.

its amazing what can happen when you make the pitcher throw strikes

Kopech with a nice start , 7 IP ,3H , 2R , 9K ,1 BB

There is no patience in the game today. Not only batters but management and especially fans want big hits and they want them now. Walks don't get hurrahs. You gotta swing in order to hit the ball. Team play is gone. The little things are laughable. Only the big splash gets you the acclaim and money.

They should fire the hitting coach.

You really have to wonder what is their plan at the plate, it’s one thing when the pitcher gets you out but another thing when you constantly get yourself out. Baseball wise, we have some of the most mentally challenged players I have ever seen.

Lynn needs to wear it. Leave him in 5-6 innings each game, even if he gives up 10 runs a game for the rest of the season, or until he hits the IL for the third straight season. No need to waste the bullpen. leave them for the four other games through the rotation the Sox have a chance. Lynn is always quick to point at other players on the field, blaming teammates and third base coaches just like Dallas Keuchel. At least Dallas didn't cost the Sox one of the few solid pitching prospects over the past decade. Speaking of the other one, Hahn doesn't offer Carlos Rodon a QO, but pays these two on their final MLB deals $100M and doubled down on the Kimbrel debacle.

You could argue he loses all 6 of those games in emphatic fashion.

Last time he saw 275 was about 2018.

DFA Lynn and try ReyLo as the 5th starter while searching on the scrap heap for a replacement. Lynn is not going to work his way into playing condition this season and that should have been determined prior to or during Spring Training. Lynn lacks balance on the mound. He falls off the rubber after pitches and does not hit the spots where he is supposed to throw. He's toast. An almost guaranteed L every time his spot comes up in the rotation.

I mean it unironically couldn't hurt.

San Diego loves the trade.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 23, 2009 -> 11:17 AM) While I criticize KW from time to time (mostly because there are so many people who think he can do no wrong) picking out 2 trades in 9 years is a bit ridiculous. Everyone screws up. I still think in the long run the Swisher trade isn't as bad as you think. He's not a CF and didn't have a place to play on the White Sox. They got out of his contract. We'll see how he does the next several years. Rios probably isn't a White Sox if Swisher is around, and he's a better player, and they did use the money they saved this year to sign Viciedo. The Foulke trade was bad at the time, the Sox may have won the WS in 2003 or 2004 if they kept him, but Cotts did help them win in 2005 even if Koch was done when they acquired him. May vs. did, I'll take the did anytime. So many bad trades wind up decently. When Hawk was GM, he was criticized for trading Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon. DeLeon was a decent pitcher who eventually turned into Lance Johnson. A guy that helped the Sox win a lot of games. Hawk supposedly ruined the White Sox, a team not good enough to win previously when they had Britt Burns (who never pitched again) and Tom Seaver (who didn't wan't to play in the midwest anymore) and Bob James (who fell apart) leading their pitching staff in 1985. He also acquired Ivan Calderon for almost nothing, and Calderon help the Sox have a great season in 1990, before he was turned into Tim Raines. He was also criticized for turning over the scouting dept., the department that drafted Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds. I'm using Hawk as an example of grading the Swisher trade. Its waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy to early to grade it. Granted Betemit and Marquez aren't long for getting paid to play baseball, but what if Viciedo becomes a star? What if Nunez becomes dominant? Perhaps those are longshots, but what if Rios outplays Swisher for years? That's almost a guarantee. Good post, Dick. We can probably have a separate thread on Kenny's deals. He does make it interesting, but the Foulke trade was bad, Neil Cotts' 2005 contribution notwithstanding. He should have known better than to acquire Koch, then give him $12 MM. Then the Swisher trade -- I wish Kenny would not even talk to Beane. I never understood giving up on Sweeney, especially since he can play CF. Gio, too. All of the Carl Everett and Alomar deals were so-so. Kenny has a habit of getting over the hill players like them; also, Darrin Erstad, who was an embarrassment. He throws worse than Pods. Same with Betemit. I thought he gave up way too much for Thome, given that we did the Phillies a huge favor by taking Thome, since all they had was Ryan Howard ready to go. There were others, some of which I forgot. Although it doesn't sound like it, I like Kenny.

QUOTE (jenks45monster @ Aug 24, 2009 -> 07:15 PM) I've been following this guy since I couldn't find any info on him earlier in the season. Name: Leighton Pangilinan Born: March 6, 1991 Height: 6'3 Weight: 230 Position: 1B Bats: Left Throws: Right School: Escalon High School (California) Drafted: 2009, 40th Round - 1213 overall Stats at Bristol: AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SH SF GIDP OBP SLG OPS .303 37 119 8 36 7 0 3 15 4 24 0 1 1 2 6 .325 .437 .762 Great name, too. Pangilinan and Shoemaker on same team.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Aug 24, 2009 -> 09:46 AM) Vicideo is a good candidate for 1B. He might be too short to be an average first baseman. Speaking of that, Konerko is underrated defensively. Never would have said that 5-6 yrs ago.

How does DSL compare to other minor league levels?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Aug 18, 2009 -> 10:24 AM) I completely agree. I think his agent f***ed him over big-time. But he also screwed himself over. I never saw a final list of signees. Is there a link available?

QUOTE (Fedor @ Aug 7, 2009 -> 03:04 PM) Brandon MaCarthy, Neal Cotts and Gio Gonzalez struck out a lot of A-ball hitters, too. Big deal. Dex Carter needs to prove he's Corwin Malone before Padres annoint as anything "next" All three of those guys made it to the majors, and the jury is still out on Gio. I wish I were a fly on EW's wall when he made the Peavy trade. Wonder which of our guys put it over. Seems to me like Padres would have done it for Pareda and Richard alone once Peavy was injured. I think we gave up too much.