Admitting a Wrong: Kenny Williams vs Rick Hahn

[HOFHurt35]

36 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The owner forced a manager on the front office and that manager had a penchant for wanting as many single inning relievers as possible. Tony La Russa had the team that he wanted. They can fire Rick Hahn. That's fine. Without an entire house cleaning though, I doubt much changes. Ken Williams will be employed until he decides to leave. 

Just like your tweets, your obsessed with just pointing the finger at LaRussa on all the White Sox issues.  And you speak with so much certainty that LaRussa moved all the roster pieces, which is absurd.   No GM would allow this.  

 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Just like your tweets, your obsessed with just pointing the finger at LaRussa on all the White Sox issues.  And you speak with so much certainty that LaRussa moved all the roster pieces, which is absurd.   No GM would allow this.  

 

How many other GMs would have allowed a manager to be hired over their objections while also covering up that manager's DUI in the initial press conference? 

[GREEDY]

Difficult to know which door needs kicked in.

Is Kenny still in charge and Rick just does the negotiating and the press?

If Jerry could trump all and put TLR in the dugout, how many moves has he made over KW/RH's tenure?  

How did Jeremy Haber's stock rise so much?    You can't have 3 guys and an owner all calling the shots.... 

Seems to most that we need new ownership and a completely overhauled front office.  Maybe if and when they are forced to run this mess back next season, if it goes poorly we will get our wish.

[South Side Hit Men]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

How many other GMs would have allowed a manager to be hired over their objections while also covering up that manager's DUI in the initial press conference? 

The first part is accurate, the second may not be based on Bob Nightengale's reporting the day before 2021 Spring Training, indicating Tony told Jerry about his latest reported DUI, but that Jerry told no one. Rick Hahn was pissed Danny Parkins asked him about it the following day, but Hahn never denied or questioned the reported facts.

I'll add my own speculation that Jerry offered Tony the managerial job between the time of his arrest and Labor Day, and like the DUI told no one in his organization.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The first part is accurate, the second may not be based on Bob Nightengale's reporting the day before 2021 Spring Training, indicating Tony told Jerry about his latest reported DUI, but that Jerry told no one. Rick Hahn was pissed Danny Parkins asked him about it the following day, but Hahn never denied or questioned the reported facts.

 

 

Well that wouldn't exactly make things better would it, if ownership left him to go give the press conference and then covered it up from him?

[GreenSox]

Kenny Williams was a C GM.  Hahn is a F GM.
There's never been the positional talent on the Sox as there was from 2000-2005.   He let a lot of it go prior to winning the ring.  No playoffs until he got the pitching squared away in 2005.
Most of his blustery trades were busts (although for the most part, the players he traded away didn't do much either).  But he made some extremely helpful small trades, such as Uribe and Thornton.  Oh, and despite what Michael Lewis says, trading Chad Bradford for Olivo was an excellent trade.

Edited September 28, 2022 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Just like your tweets, your obsessed with just pointing the finger at LaRussa on all the White Sox issues.  And you speak with so much certainty that LaRussa moved all the roster pieces, which is absurd.   No GM would allow this.  

 

Typically?  Absolutely this is the right take.  But from the day Jerry went out over his GM and VPs to forced Tony LaRussa on the front office, there can be zero certainty of Rick and Tony having autonomy on ANYTHING they do.  In fact it makes the theory that Tony has more power than they do all of the more plausible, and impossible to disprove.  At the end of the day employees can do what the boss allows them to do, and make no mistake, Jerry is the boss, not Rick.

[GreenSox]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The owner forced a manager on the front office and that manager had a penchant for wanting as many single inning relievers as possible.

Rick Hahn put an inordinate amount of resources into the bullpen, before LaRussa.  And then there's that #30 farm system...

[Y2Jimmy0]

59 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Rick Hahn has been investing heavily in relievers before Tony LaRussa ever walked in the door. 

Rick Hahn traded for Craig Kimbrel.

Rick Hahn gave Kendall Graveman a 3 year deal.

This nonsense that it was Tony... or Kenny... or Jerry is just laughable at this point. Rick Hahn is the general manager of the team, the buck stops with him. Part of being in charge is receiving feedback and acting on the feedback you agree with and talking your way out of the feedback you don't.

Right but he's not in charge. You're skipping over that part. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

48 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Just like your tweets, your obsessed with just pointing the finger at LaRussa on all the White Sox issues.  And you speak with so much certainty that LaRussa moved all the roster pieces, which is absurd.   No GM would allow this.  

 

Thanks for following 

[South Side Hit Men]

31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well that wouldn't exactly make things better would it, if ownership left him to go give the press conference and then covered it up from him?

For the organization or Jerry's reputation? No.

But Rick wasn't biting his tongue about the DUI, was just indignant at the fact he was hiring TLR, regardless of the nonsense he was forced to spew regarding this not about righting a wrong or that all three came to the decision that this was the best hire.

[A-Train to 35th]

Choosing between the lesser of 2 evils is no way to manage a baseball team.  My vote goes to neither KW or RH, both are no good at their jobs.

[waltwilliams]

2 hours ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Something to remember is Kenny Williams inherited a wonderful farm system constructed by Ron Schueler. Kenny utilized that to its fullest and while I appreciated him putting competitive teams on the field constantly, his neglect of the farm system (or mismanagement) led to a lot of the problems after he moved upward. 

KW was the director of that "wonderful farm system" under Schueler from 1995 to 1997, and he was the director of player personnel from '97 to 2000. So Kenny should get a lot of credit for the minor league system during Schueler's reign. And while he would continually tap into that minor league system for trades during his time as GM, he never traded anyone of the magnitude of Tatis, Jr. Kip Wells (in the Todd Ritchie deal in 2002) and Chris Young (in the Javy Vasquez trade in 2006) were the biggest names he gave up -- both had fairly long but mediocre careers. There's no doubt KW was one of the best GMs the Sox ever had.

[zisk]

Get rid of every one. If Jerry doesn't sell, he has to let his son take over. Let him pick a new exec. V.P. in charge of the whole damn thing.

Then we'll know who to blame if we still suck in 2-3 years. I may be alone in thinking this, but we have enough talent to trade for what we

don't have. We also have 2 position players in the minors who should be starting  2023 as regulars at 35th and shields(Sosa and Colas).

The right manager and GM could fix this s%*# fast.

[Harry Chappas]

If LaRussa is never heard from again I think that leads to the personnel moves being more on him.  I have to question Hahn being neutered with the LaRussa hiring and not taking a stand but that is also easier said than done.

I think Hahn should be allowed to hire the next manager and staff and the leash should be extremely short.

This whole organization is f'd up as we do not even know if Hahn can make a move without Kenny.

I think the bullpen infatuation and old man signings were LaRussa and I am hopefully that Hahn felt he had to go along for the ride.

[Balta1701]

43 minutes ago, waltwilliams said:

KW was the director of that "wonderful farm system" under Schueler from 1995 to 1997, and he was the director of player personnel from '97 to 2000. So Kenny should get a lot of credit for the minor league system during Schueler's reign. And while he would continually tap into that minor league system for trades during his time as GM, he never traded anyone of the magnitude of Tatis, Jr. Kip Wells (in the Todd Ritchie deal in 2002) and Chris Young (in the Javy Vasquez trade in 2006) were the biggest names he gave up -- both had fairly long but mediocre careers. There's no doubt KW was one of the best GMs the Sox ever had.

One of the reasons he never had anyone to give up is that they spent 10 years as one of the worst systems in the league. About the only player who actually came through their system worth a dime from 2005-2015 was Chris Sale. While he's not chopped liver and it would have sucked to give him up early, he's literally 1 top draft pick. 

Some other guys they gave up who were decent include Gio Gonzalez, Aaron Rowand, and Daniel Hudson. They couldn't give away a Tatis level player though because the only 1 they found over a 10 year period was Sale. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Right but he's not in charge. You're skipping over that part. 

so rick hahn makes none of the decisions what so ever and is just a figure head taking orders from everyone else?

[hi8is]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

so rick hahn makes none of the decisions what so ever and is just a figure head taking orders from everyone else?

It’s seemed that way for about a decade.

[TheBooneLoganEra]

56 minutes ago, waltwilliams said:

KW was the director of that "wonderful farm system" under Schueler from 1995 to 1997, and he was the director of player personnel from '97 to 2000. So Kenny should get a lot of credit for the minor league system during Schueler's reign. And while he would continually tap into that minor league system for trades during his time as GM, he never traded anyone of the magnitude of Tatis, Jr. Kip Wells (in the Todd Ritchie deal in 2002) and Chris Young (in the Javy Vasquez trade in 2006) were the biggest names he gave up -- both had fairly long but mediocre careers. There's no doubt KW was one of the best GMs the Sox ever had.

Absolutely, he definitely was around in the Schueler era and a part of the talent that was brought in. But that doesn't change the fact that the cupboard was bare when Hahn took over after 12 years of KW. Williams always stuck me as someone who favored "athletics" over baseball acumen. Jared Mitchell immediately jumps to mind along with Keenyn walker. Both Hahn and Williams have skills in areas that can contribute to success but I agree with the assessment somebody made about KW as a grade C gm and Hahn as an F. Regardless they've both been around faaaar too long.

[Soxfest]

Both need gone records are abysmal 

[Dick Allen]

Is there any other team in baseball who would hire RH as  GM?

What does he have to sell to a potential employer for that position?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Dick Allen

[chw42]

1 hour ago, TheBooneLoganEra said:

Absolutely, he definitely was around in the Schueler era and a part of the talent that was brought in. But that doesn't change the fact that the cupboard was bare when Hahn took over after 12 years of KW. Williams always stuck me as someone who favored "athletics" over baseball acumen. Jared Mitchell immediately jumps to mind along with Keenyn walker. Both Hahn and Williams have skills in areas that can contribute to success but I agree with the assessment somebody made about KW as a grade C gm and Hahn as an F. Regardless they've both been around faaaar too long.

Kenny was great at finding veterans that would over perform out of nowhere. Although I'm not sure how much of that was because of Don Cooper and Herm Schneider. 

Kenny just sucked at building any sort of farm system and often fell in love with players he liked no matter how over the hill they were. 

[Dick Allen]

You want a job forever? Get hired by the White Sox at any position, and occasionally mention how JR is the greatest guy to work for. George Costanza could last 40 years.

[Stinky Stanky]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

One of the reasons he never had anyone to give up is that they spent 10 years as one of the worst systems in the league. About the only player who actually came through their system worth a dime from 2005-2015 was Chris Sale. While he's not chopped liver and it would have sucked to give him up early, he's literally 1 top draft pick. 

Some other guys they gave up who were decent include Gio Gonzalez, Aaron Rowand, and Daniel Hudson. They couldn't give away a Tatis level player though because the only 1 they found over a 10 year period was Sale. 

Traded Carlos Lee for a singles hitter. ?

[Chick Mercedes]

I get the sense that Hahn got permission to do A rebuild. This one, with young aquisitions. As opposed to normal MO. Not necessarily usher in a change in organizational philosophy going forward. He had pressure to win beginning last year and this year. As far as pressure to revamp the way the team does business, remains to he seen, but honestly, doubtful.