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Ample amount of posts in here

We will be fine

every one of these coaches needs to be fired.

Ricky’s boys don’t quit bunting

Hawk just left Granger to check on Frazier

So you always play for a run with bunting yet you play infield back with number 9 guy up? He’s just so ridiculously bad.

Orioles fans are really, really excited by the claim

Yes, please.

Why would you just assume he would be unable to fix a long swing mechanic? You are definitely going to get shit if he turns out good. You're already dug in, no givesies backsies.

BRING IN FULMER IM READY TO HURT MYSELF TODAY

Steve Stone: “They’re going to walk Yolmer. He’s swinging the bat too well.” These words have never been spoken before, nor will they ever be again.

And just think the stupid manager had Captain Caveman batting before Moncada tonight

Everyone who makes the playoffs has a chance.

Doubles power is why I like the possibility of Steele in RF in Chicago in a couple of years. That would be a nice addition to the bottom third of the lineup.

Should trade Alex colome too

Moncada getting traded!

Yes, I 100% believe Colome has been worth two wins or less. And the average you’re quoting is intended for position players and not relievers. An average reliever is not worth close to two wins. No, I think high leverage innings should be attributed more value than low leverage ones. WAR ignores context which is admittedly a shortcoming. It doesn’t mean WAR is a bad tool like you’re suggesting, just requires a bit more nuance in its application. No idea what that lady line means.

Why are Cordell and Engel near locks? This exemplifies more than anything why this organization is horseshit.

Get decapitated by him?

I would not expect any player to say anything different in this situation. Once he's traded, then he can bad-mouth the org.

Fangraphs won't like Colome because he doesn't strike any one out. BBRef loves him. And teams presumably have their own much more sophisticated forms of WAR that none of us have access to. Not a one of them is pulling up fangraphs before they make a trade.

1down 22 or so to go. 1 down 22 or so to go

With facts and logic

It's disgusting imo the Sox aren't calling this kid up this year so they can screw him out of a year of FA. Glaring example of everything that's wrong with corporate America today. I find it sad and disheartening so many are fine with this.

Yes, I think it is entirely possible that if the White Sox did not trade for Colome, they would have something like 1 or 2 fewer wins this year. Most outings for closers they come in for the 9th inning with the lead and don't have to worry about a pressure situation - even a bad closer will still have a 75 or 80% save rate. Sergio Romo is not particularly great, he's ok, he's basically a replacement level player this year (0.2 bWAR), but he's also 17/18 on saves. You can find cheap guys to pitch the 9th inning when you're up by 2 or 3 runs without much trouble. Colome also has only pitched a couple of times outside of save situations, and in at least 1 of those he got blasted. So, let's say the White Sox had 3 more blown saves this year, that's an 80% success rate for a closer, which is pretty replaceable. Have the White Sox lost all 3 of those games? No, one or two of them go to extra innings and there's a 50/50 shot they win one of those. So, 1 or 2 fewer wins with a closer off the scrap heap.

Nobody wants to win more than JR.

Yeah, he's probably earned a 120 or so wRC+. Could be better sure but struggling is the wrong word.

Lol, dude this is a message board. I’m not in charge and you’re free to post. I am not telling you to leave. I am just commenting that your constant negativity gets tiresome. Obviously the Sox have sucked for sometime and it gets old for all of us. But I don’t think it’s too much to ask to attempt to understand that all teams need depth and every spot on the 40 man is not going to be filled with an all star. Giving away assets for nothing is not a wise way to do business.

Bull. Just 100% absolute Grade-A bull. From June 10th to the All-Star Break, that was the stretch that most claimed was going to send the White Sox into the cellar. That stretch had: - 2 games v. the Nats (57-49) *1st place NL WC - 4 games v. the Yankees (67-38) *1st place AL East / Best record in AL / 2nd best record overall - 2 games v. the Cubs (56-49) *Tied for 1st place in NL Central - 3 games v. the Rangers (53-53) - 3 games v. the Red Sox (59-48) - 3 games v. the Twins (64-41) *1st place AL Central / 4th best record overall - 3 games v. the Tigers (30-71) - 2 games v. the Cubs (56-49) *Tied for 1st place in NL Central That's 22 games, of which only 3 came against a team below .500. Hell, only 6 of them came against teams that are not currently either in the playoff hunt or at the head of the pack. Don't feed us this crap that they had a soft schedule coming off the toughest stretch of the season and making through it with a respectable record.

When someone is this astronomically bad, yes, it deserves its own thread. Five batters and five runs, sorry, but we could have put Matt Davidson in our starting rotation at the start of the year and he would never have had a line like that. Five batters, five runs, I think, in only 13 pitches. Covey after today will have a career record of 6 and 28 with the Sox. How much more do they have to see? Release him tonight.

He's worth a shot, but I'm not holding my breath he doesn't suck

I’ve seen it explained at least two or three times in this thread already. Why are you crediting the closer, who pitches one inning, with 100% of the win in your formula. That’s just the beginning of your bad math.

No, his prospect status had already started to fall by then.

There is nothing about WAR that is subjective. Its difficult to give a slash line because amazingly enough you get value and lose it for more than just offense because baseball isn't just offense. Leury Garcia plays a premium defensive position and has graded out above average there. He also is a + base runner. Abreu is a bad defender and base runner who is only about 10% better than Leury with the bat this year despite playing a position that asks for premium offensive production. That's why leury is a more valuable player. It's not that complicated. A replacement level SS (assuming league average defense and baserunning) slash line would look something like Brandon Crawford this year: 234/304/376

I will be mad if they do try and trade him and even madder if I see this poll here again

You get hung up on the name on the back of the jersey. If you had it your way Eloy, Robert, and Moncada, and Cease would not be on this team. It would be a playground of mediocrity with slumping old vets and a lets catch lightning in a bottle. But hey as long as your jersey matches the player on the field. Good grief you are dense.

Why are you asking Ron about logic when you wouldn’t trade two months of control over Abreu before he hits free agency for a top 100 prospect? Try applying some logic and reasoning to your own warped opinions first, Greg, before analyzing someone else’s.

I always root for him. He just disappoints often.

Dear Lip Man: I feel your pain. Once the White Sox are in your blood, it's permanent. I was suspended for the first three months of the season and my life was in many ways actually better off. I read more, watched movies and t.v. shows, spent more time with my family. I started following the Padres and contributing at Gaslamp Ball, just because baseball has been with me my entire life and even when I am not following the White Sox closely, I'll follow the minors or the draft or the College World Series or even watch a Little League game. It was a coping mechanism, just like the only way I could tolerate the 2013-2019 period of White Sox baseball was to start following the Royals (I lived there in KC from 1997-2007) because I knew they were going somewhere eventually, as they played such an exciting type of baseball (like the Cardinals and Royals in the mid 1980's)...one that almost no longer exists today, and is inarguably the exact opposite of today's three outcome game you're constantly referring to. I love to watch the rookies especially, in the past....Puig in 2013 (that's when we started to be terrible and I had to find other aspects of the game besides getting upset about Adam Dunn, Kenny Williams or Robin Ventura), the Royals, fantasy baseball for most of this season. I've enjoyed watching Tatis, Jr., play very much....in some morbid way, I think it was bmaggs that said it, that was supposed to be OUR White Sox. Tatis, Jr. and Machado...the #1 or #2 farm system in baseball overflowing with pitching talent (what COULD have been had we doubled down in the Luis Robert signing year and spent another $25-30 million), what will likely to be the addition of a frontline starting pitcher utilizing the depth of their minor league prospects from 1-50. Every White Sox fan should have a place here. We've all struggled with how to be "ideal Sox fans" in this era...and it has taken a toll, in terms of arguing about how a fan should act or behave. Obviously, right now, there's a mix of optimism and negativity with the 50% in the realistic/pragmatic middle, although that 50% (the silent majority) often just lurks or isn't as vocal or tenable because a reasonable position isn't as tenable on an online message board. Your passion for White Sox history and especially the decade of the 1950's/60's/70's is (or at least should be) always welcome, and I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and picking up things from archived interviews of the past. Baseball, if it's nothing else (remember, the average fan today who ranks baseball their favorite sport is 57), is about shared memories with our fathers and families, playing catch in the backyard and "going to the big city" and sitting there is the stands at places like Old Comiskey or Wrigley Field and keeping score by hand...in the age fifteen years before cell phones started to take over our lives, just the sights and sounds and smells, the unforgettable crack of the ball off the bat of a great player that just had a different tone or of a rising fastball audibly sizzling through the afternoon sunlight. In the end, it's a game. It's neither life nor death, there are bigger issues in the world that we can no longer talk about in a civil fashion without both sides demonizing the other...I've always said the one thing about the White Sox I was proudest of was that fans came from all walks of life, all socio-economic groups and we had diverse teams and diverse fans as well, we were certainly not a typical Wrigley yuppie crowd there to oggle "babes in the stands" while drinking our Buds with our fraternity friends, but actually went to the park faithfully because of our team and the game played in front of us. I'm sticking with it because I believe in the dedication to his craft of Madrigal (who's as close as we're ever going to get to Nellie Fox), the raw talent of Luis Robert...no matter what I think or feel about the front office, it's not going to change my allegiance to the name on the front of the jersey, even as the names on the back ceaselessly change over the decades. All we can do is be ourselves, write what we feel...and realize no matter what, there's going to be a lot of people that might not like what we write, how we write...what we write about it, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't express ourselves as long as it does no harm to others. You need tough skin around here, and it's hard not to fight back when insulted or ridiculed or fill-in-the-verb (I did it again on Sunday after someone was snarky). Once upon a time, there was a Chisox.com board about 15 years ago with NCORGBL (my bigger enemy) and SAT46...who was a fan of White Sox history and the names of the past, just like yourself. You remind me of a much saner version of him...but reading those names and hearing those stories of the past or this day in Sox history always brought a smile to my face.

According to Fangraphs, Nellie Fox was worth 45 wins and Pete Rose was worth 80 wins. See, analytics aren’t the enemy.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/lucas-giolitos-rough-july-was-just-a-blip/ Good information and surprising his spin rate continues to improve through this rough stretch. I agree the changeup to righties have been killing him (Cruz, Contreras, etc.)

Really like your post. You are comparing winning teams though that seem to rebound. We don't have the starting pitching to have a serious win streak. The losses bother me because some of them are serious ass kickin's. It's a bit different losing a game by a run or two.

?Couldn’t find the rolling eyes icon...btw, is there an Audi club here as well? Maybe one of them can be a SoxTalk sponsor with all the high net worth individuals, like Rolex for the Masters and British Open.

I think there just needs to be some bridging of the gap with people here. Some fans are used to using stats descriptively because that's often how they used them growing up. In this view, Alex Colome's 21 saves are important because it underscores how we watched him come in 21 times and finished with the win. Same with RBI, each being tied to watching the batter come up and end up with a runner scoring at home. These are re-enforcing the description of the season as it occurred and the memories tied to it. But what those stats are not answering is "how good is player x". And that's a question many on here and in baseball fandom want to answer because it helps us understand the game better, helps us enjoy the game more, and part of that is due to wanting to theorize how to make the best team possible. I think everyone here enjoyed Scott Podsednik having 38 stolen bases before the ASB in 2005, which led to him being an all star. But that didn't mean that he was one of the best outfielders in the game. And this gap happens were people feel like they are diminishing the things a player did in fact do, when really it is just trying to answer a different question. It's awesome Colome has come up 21 times in the 9th and shut it down. It was fun to watch. But if I'm a GM trying to trade for the guy I don't get to transfer those 21 saves to my team. I'm trying to figure out if the guy I acquire will nail it down for me. That's what the "statniks" are trying to understand: how much of a players performance is indicative of their talent, and how much is indicative of the context it happened in.

A LOT of problems here, but for starters, replacement level does NOT equal average. It equals replacement level. The average MLB contributor is roughly two wins above replacement level. Secondly, WAR seeks to assign wins in a context-neutral setting. A save is about the most context-dependent statistic in existence, so it is completely unrelated. Thirdly, if you were going to try to make the argument that Alex Colome was worth six or seven wins because of his save totals, you’d have to first make the argument that a save itself is worth an entire win — which, if you think about it, makes no sense at all. How could playing in one half of one inning be equivalent to winning and entire game? I’m not trying to sound condescending here man, but what “research” did you do here? Nothing of what you said above has anything to do with WAR. If you really do want to understand WAR, I can point you to some resources.

It's been explained to you. You're giving the closer credit for the whole win in the "saves above average" category, which is wrong for reasons that have already been pointed out. Firstly, closers will always be well above the league average save rate because blown saves are credited to middle relievers and setup relievers who give up a lead, despite the fact that they never would have gotten the save had they not given up the lead. Further, as has been stated several times, you're giving the closer credit for the whole win in those situations. Under your model, the closer's contributions to the win are the only ones that matter. Not the starting pitcher's quality start, not the offense's performance, not the defense's performance, but only the closer matters. In fact, going further, based on your "calculation" of 6.86 vs. the fWAR calculation of 1.7, Colome is actually getting about 25% of the credit for the "wins" he's "responsible for", which to me is actually dramatically skewed in his favor.

Vile - What’s funny is I actually agree with your thread title and personally think WAR is a stupid way to evaluate all relievers. I just don’t buy that you’ve actually done much research on this subject and this thread just reeks of a continued desire to push your anti advanced metrics propaganda.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. Neither Cabrera nor Pujols were signed to their current long term contracts at the ripe, ‘ol age of 26, like Machado was. The Tigers and Angels will be paying Cabrera and Pujols into their early 40s, while the Padres will only pay Manny through his age 36 year. HUGE DIFFERENCE! Again, epic fail by the Sox not to take advantage of the rare opportunity to sign a guy of Machado’s caliber at the prime age that he was available.