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I was winder where they ranked after 1 home game during an attendance limited season

A quick look at baseball reference gives a snapshot after 8 games. Here's the rank of hitters in OPS+ Mercedes - 308 Grandal - 148 Collins - 121 Robert - 113 Abreu - 100 Eaton - 100 Moncada - 97 Madrigal - 95 Hamilton - 91 Vaughn - 71 Anderson - 66 Garcia - negative 43 Here are the starters by ERA Lynn - zero Rodon - zero Giolito - 4.22 Cease - 5.79 Keuchel - 7 Bullpen by ERA Kopech - zero Crochet - zero Bummer - zero (first game meltdown was unearned runs) Heuer - 2.45 Ruiz - 2.7 Hendriks - 7.71 Marshall - 9.82 Foster - 27 What conclusions can you draw from this? Hitting - Mercedes is carrying the offense at the moment. - Grandal and Collins are hitting quite will - Grandal with the high OBP, Collins with more power - Abreu isn't warmed up yet - Eaton is league average, which is an improvement over Mazara. - Moncada looks much worse than this number, because he's picked it up in the last couple of games. - Madrigal isn't hitting as well, but his OBP is very high. - Vaughn is getting acclimated to MLB. - Anderson is off to a slow start. Getting normal Anderson back will jump start this offense. - Garcia is having an awful start, but isn't really this bad. TLR should look for every opportunity not to play him. Mendick is a better choice until Anderson returns. Starters - They need to go deeper into games. - Only Keuchel is off, but he did pretty well in his second start until the 6th. - Rodon's first start looks very promising - Cease still has a lot of work to do - Giolito will be better than this Bullpen - TLR hasn't figured out the rhythm to get Hendriks into the right situations yet. - Kopech and Crochet look awesome and are real weapons - Sox need Bummer to settle in and be a force in the 8th - Heuer as the 3rd guy (outside future starters Kopech and Crochet) is solid - Foster and Marshall aren't this bad - Ruiz might pitch his way into a bigger role, reprising Cordero's job from last year. Overall The Sox are a work in progress. Defense has been bad. Starters are getting stretched out. Hitting has been streaky. The team needs to be healthy - Anderson and Engel's return will improve the team a lot. The bullpen and TLR haven't been in synch. but they will get there.

I'm not sure how Engel returning helps them a ton. If they want to give him LF and send Vaughn to the alternate site, that's one thing, but otherwise he'll just be a late inning defensive sub for AV.

If this team just catches the ball, they're easily 6-2 or 7-1.

The last thing I would call this is a problem. When has the White Sox organization ever had too many good players? If every player in this thread is good enough at the same time to force some tough decisions, we are in a very good position and probably a WS favorite. We cannot possibly go from worrying about having zero depth to worrying about having too many good players in a few days span. We sound insane.

God I hope we don't have a lot of off days .

Yes. People still aren’t realizing they are about to see a historically good team. This is easily going to be the best White Sox team ever assembled. Even this year, which is a couple years ahead of peak IMO. I STILL think this holds up even with Eloy gone, though it’s going to be closer because of that. Eloy going down sucks because I thought we were going to steamroll the reputations of the best Yankee teams in history

cub fans are saying we been social distancing before social distancing was popular ☹️

Madrigal is a nutshell so far this season: Elite contact ability (100th percentile) Improving walk rate (10.3% vs 3.7% LY) Poor quality of contact (.230 xwOBACON) Good not great speed (~70th percentile) Shitty defensive play (4th percentile in OAA) So far lacking a supposed high baseball IQ Personally, after doing this exercise I’m actually a bit more optimistic. His one elite tool (contact ability) he’s delivering on while his quality said of contact is way down from last year, which will almost certainly improve in a bigger sample. Nick will never be a power hitter given his approach and frame, so getting on base at a high clip is what will make or break him as an above league average hitter. The good news there is his walk rate is way up and that corresponds with an 11 point drop in his O-swing %. None of this is overly sexy or makes up for passing on potential high impact talents like Jarred Kelenic in the 2018 draft, but offensively there is a package here that can result in an incredibly effective #9 hitter / second leadoff hitter. Speed wise it’s very clear he wasn’t the plus plus runner some scouts pegged him as at Oregon St and that’s evident from just watching him. That being said, talk of him being slow is completely fabricated. He looks like he’ll be someone who will end up around the 75th percentile for sprint speed which is plenty fast but not necessarily game changing. I don’t envision him ever being a huge SB threat, probably plateauing in the 10 to 20 range. His speed should allow him provide positive value just running the bases as long as he can keep the gaffes to a minimum. And that feeds directly into his defense. What the hell is going on with this kid and why is he making so many mistakes and dumb decisions? He definitely made some ugly mistakes last year, but ultimately Statcast had his defense in the 85th percentile for OAA. This year he’s sitting in the 4th percentile and has actually looked like a liability out there. What he is in the field will ultimately decide whether he can be an above average 2B or not. IMO, I think he’s playing a bit scared out there and is in how own head right now. Some people here tend to forgot these are human beings and not robots and guys like Nick haven’t dealt with a lot of failure in their pro careers. You see it all the time with young guys being poor defenders when they first get called up with Moncada being a prime example of that at 2B. I do think his defense was probably a bit overstated, but I still expect Nick to be above average defensively in the end when he finally develops a bit more confidence in himself. If so, he can still be a very valuable player on a legit championship contending team.

JR stopped responding to my letters a few years ago. Its really a shame because I would have made a better GM than Hahn.

Vaughn should never be in the outfield.....ever. His sole focus should be on hitting. Don't distract him...at all. He is under enough pressure as a rookie trying to stay on the Major league roster. Let him DH every other game so that he has a chance to prove that he can hit better than Mercedes. If he can't, the Sox surely do not need his glove in the outfield.

Bro, it's 1 game, with crazy restrictions for every team other than Texas. Like, you might as well try and divide by zero.

Is this a real thread, lol

We usually start the attendance thread after the shitty 2nd game because it typically draws about 8k. Caulfield breaking tradition. For shame.

I was 11 years old and sitting in the 3rd row of the upper deck right in front of where this happened. I saw the whole thing.

Good lord no fun police out in full force. Not you just in MLB, shit is absurd.

Mercedes doesn’t have much value until he can prove over 3-4 months that he can sustain this... He has more value to the White Sox until Vaughn/Collins prove themselves...and/or Jimenez returns at full health.

My takeaway...despite a few injuries and underperformance from several individuals, this team is going to be really good if they stay relatively healthy. Consider the following MLB ranks and understand, if they sustain this all season, wins will most certainly follow (alot of them); Offense - 5th in FWAR and wRC+ Pitching - 7th in fWAR and xFIP, 5th in FIP Run differential - 5th Truth is the advanced metrics tell the story of a 6-2 or 5-3 team, not 4-4. However, SSS and close late inning blown leads have resulted in a 4-4 record. Those things will even out over 162.

I’m not crying.

Lolol

It looks like there will be a window of about an hour if they start at 1:10. I guess they need to decide whether or not that's worth starting the game and not being able to resume it until after 6. EDIT: Apparently, the answer is no

Restraining orders are a b****

Disagree.

Got it. Thanks

They can do it at any time. The only difference now is they’ll have to make up for any time accrued so far this year. So if before he needed to be down 2.5 weeks now it’s closer to 4 and rising every game.

Stuff like this is what makes baseball great

As with last season, let’s see what happens when they face good teams (Angels certainly looking the part so far) and excellent RHPers. Other than Pittsburgh and maybe the Brewers when Woodruff and Burnes aren’t going, the NL Central looks tougher than expected. Better than having to face the NL East, but probably a toss-up with the top heavy NL West where there are two strong teams and three pretty bad ones.

Joe Borchard 500+ foot homer?

The question is not whether Vaughn can hit better than Mercedes, but whether he can hit better than the outfielders the Sox have healthy right now. I would take him now over Williams and Hamilton (before he got hurt). The only place to develop his hitting is in LF because he's not outhitting Mercedes at the moment.

No one besides Vuc/Lavine know how to score and Atlanta started triple teaming Lavine and letting the rest of the Bulls brick every shot.

There's a George Carlin joke in this thread somewhere about Caulfield. Caufield, I love you man but just lol.

I get your point but you’re misunderstanding the term “ceiling”. Nick doesn’t have a high floor. His floor is “total dogshit, unplayable weak-hitting, poor defender who can’t even maintain useful BA/OBP with zero power”. That’s his floor because it’s actually an outcome with pretty decent odds. His ceiling is one of the most valuable players in baseball, hitting mid to high 300s with OBPs easily around 400, and a special ability to find holes and gaps. The Sox drafted him at #4 because he actually has a decent shot of hitting this enormous ceiling. The Sox put their massive team balls on the table when they drafted him. It’s not the safe “floor” pick that people often misrepresent.

So much for being able to add at the deadline....can't spend a quarter when you're making a nickel or something like that. ?

It's also ridiculous to compare other draft classes because the baseball draft is not like the football or basketball drafts. The best players aren't always taken in order because money plays such a huge role on who is taken where. For example the Cubs took Kyle Schwarber with the 4th pick and signed him for $3.125M while the Sox took Nick Madrigal and signed him for $6.1M. Factoring in the money spent greatly changes the calculus for those picks.

yeah I don't think it had anything to do with the bat flip, but who knows

I don't think Abreu cares about bat flips.

They might retire his number right after Eloy's funeral.

One of my favorite parts of the movie "The Rookie" is when Dennis Quaid's character makes his Major League debut and strikes out the batter on 3 pitches. That batter was Royce Clayton and I always think "yeah a 3 pitch K sounds about right"

Makes me feel not so bad about that Mets win with the hit by pitch haha

Nick Madrigal plays like crap during his tenure with the Sox (and shows how mediocre most of his tools are) - "He's here to stay for a long time!" Yermin has a historically good start to his tenure with the Sox - "Eh, who knows if the guy will be good?"

Some of you all are laughable 1. Eloy isn't going anywhere for a very long time 2. Vaughn isn't going anywhere for a long time 3. Madrigal isn't going anywhere for a long time 4. Mercedes is great but can he sustain it for more than 1 year (we are only at 1 week)

I miss watching Paulie redo his gloves and spit in his hands

It's not. It's more about Tony preferring players he remembers or likes (Lynn, Eaton, Hendriks, Keuchel, Grandal, and sadly David Eckstein's mini me Nick Madrigal), and closer to would be grand-children ages vs. those teetering closer to great grandchild's age. In terms of Vaughn, it only adds to his value. Your pretty limited in baseball if you are young, just starting in the majors and can't play the field beyond possibly first. Sadly, that is where Eloy has been, both physically and performance wise, during the one full seasons of games he attempted. He's not passing Abreu or Eloy anytime soon. He currently is behind Mercedes, and sadly also behind AAA/Waiver Claim bait Nick Williams in Tony's mind, at least for yesterday. Strange days indeed.

I think it's less that and more TLR is stuck in the past when young players were way less heralded. You think La Russa is gonna let a dude go from A Ball (nevermind there was a whole season lost to a fucking pandemic) to a position he hasn't played and actually gain rhythm at the plate? Nah, that's not Tony's style. I'd honestly have more confidence in Ricky in bringing Vaughn along in LF. Constructing a lineup in general, no.

This, plus there is no "conundrum", good teams have more than 6 or 7 hitters that are solid, 10-13 make you a solid contender with depth. You can't worry about 2022 until you see how this season plays out. For this year I would do the following: Catcher: Grandal 3 of 5; Collins 1 of 5; Mercedes 1 of 5. Outfield: Vaughn goes to AAA to play everyday LF for 4-6 weeks when Engel returns. Eaton Robert Engel OF w/o Vaugh, four OF rotation upon Vaughn's return. Eaton really should play LF when Vaughn isn't, but Tony / Hahn doesn't have the balls or sense to do it. Designated Hitters: Primarily the catchers to start, mix in part of the four OFers once they are in place, Eloy is the primary upon his return this year and beyond. Bench: Garcia is OF and 3B only; Mendick is 2B and SS only (emergency 3B). 2022: Upgrade bench, Cespedes up to replace a FA Eaton, sign a starting 2B if Madrigal doesn't make it as a starter.

Deal ? No need to get crazy with the money. Have any specific stat in mind? I'm fine with using OPS, or we can use something more advanced. Help us set the terms fellow Soxtalkians

If Yermin is for real then you keep Vaughn in LF until he adjusts to being average to slightly below and you move Jimenez. Abreu is going to be given the Konerko treatment and will have his number retired and a stature in the outfield. I could see a situation like the following Jimenez to Arizona for Ketel Marte + RHP Slade Cecconi. Two often injured stars with similar contracts . That opens RH to move Marte to RF or 2B and move beyond Madrigal if he doesn't pick it up and the front office sours a move like this allows Vaughn to develop in LF until Cespedes/Colas force the issue or Abreu hangs it up and Vaughn moves to 1B. This is all predicated on Yermin being the next Justin Turner with the bat.

We would have said the same thing in mid August of Gordon Beckham's rookie campaign. The next White Sox captain to take over from Paulie, Jeter-esque qualities. Yermin has to hit, because he's unlikely to play in the field or catch (rifle arm but lacking in other areas and Grandal/Collins ahead of him.) So far, first big test passed... sustaining that momentum. But llet's wait and see how he does against CLE.

Jealous of the teams with depth. You would think after years of sucking, they could have developed some bench options other than Engel.