Leaderboard

How do you hate a trade before it was made?

The idea that the Sox should have had a "conservative" deadline and they should try again next year when they have a better shot at a World Series is laughable. No one knows how long this window is going to be (trading Nick Madrigal didn't shorten it either, so save that snarky reply) and the Sox were one of the best teams in the AL this season. They would have gotten killed by the fan base if they took a "conservative approach" and rightly so. I was a fan of what the Sox did at the deadline. I, along with many others, including the Sox front office, got it very wrong. Trading for Kimbrel ended up being a very bad move, no matter the cost. But that doesn't change the fact it would have been borderline criminal for the Sox not to try and win it all this year. I've been told by many on here the playoffs are a crapshoot anyway, so why not?

You'd be surprised. Lots of folks on this board hate next year's deadline moves already!

This should be universally agreed on, but will not be.

Tony LaRussa was brought in here to put this team in the position to succeed in the postseason and by that measure a grade of A- is rather comical imo.

Atlanta was 26-31 in one run games, 31-37 against teams over .500, played 8 games under their pythagorean expectation. They were 19-19 vs playoff teams, but had an above .500 record against exactly one of them in STL, going under .500 against Boston, Dodgers, Yankees, and Rays.

Somebody doesn't know what "hindsight" means. This is laughable, and reads like a test question in a class on logical fallacies. By the way, the Astros' moves at the deadline were all idiotic because they weren't going to get past the Braves--so what was the point? Unless the Astros pull it out, then the Braves' moves were all stupid. Stay tuned!

Conforto

***Argument applies to every MLB team not called the Los Angeles Dodgers (who, incidentally, are sitting at home watching a World Series between two teams clearly "worse" than they are).

I mean, aren’t most deadline trades “buy high” trades?

We are sitting here on the second year of making the playoffs bitching about a guy who got cut in May instead of looking forward to next year, and Joc sucked balls with the cubs and was basically benched, nice of him to come back in Atlanta during a playoff race but I don't remember a ton of people on this site begging for Joc. Like seriously, it just doesn't make sense to me. The Eaton move sucked they cut bait and moved on. Will crying about Eaton now make it better for me? No.

You are saying this with the benefit of hindsight. Acting like we somehow couldn’t beat the Astros in the post-season on July 31st is straight up dumb. Are you really going to stand by this point? I mean the Braves are about to beat them with four scrap-heap OF additions and a beat up rotation. Saying the move was “doomed to failure from conception” is just completely untrue and laughable. Other than criticizing the price, which is completely fair, you haven’t made one point that isn’t hindsight based. Many of the best organizations in baseball wanted Craig Kimbrel, including the Dodgers and Rays, and yet half of the posters here on Soxtalk including yourself knew the best reliever in baseball was going to fold like a house of cards down the stretch. It sucks that we don’t have Madrigal, but you need to separate the loss of him from what the addition of Kimbrel should have done for our post-season chances. The trade didn’t work out for us, but the only part that was dumb was the price we paid. Had we won a World Series and Kimbrel is still the best reliever in baseball sitting on a 1/$16M deal no one would be bitching right now.

Instead they are footing the bill for substantially higher tickets, parking, concession and RCN prices, whereas player salaries remain stagnant, below inflation, nearly every penny of it going to the Owners. 2011 White Sox Payroll: $127.7M vs, 2021 $128.7M, a 0.7% increase. 2011 Cubs Payroll: $134.0M vs. 2021 $147.8M, a 10.2% increase. Perhaps you don't get a chance to go to many games in Chicago, but tell me have tickets, parking, beers, food, cable bills increased 0.7% the past decade in Texas? Most major league players earn at or near the minimum salary. Without factoring in survivor bias (only a small number of total professional ballplayers reach the Majors), most last a few years, most don't reach FA and many who do are colluded against by the owners the past few decades. Not to mention having to pay the highest tax brackets for their short careers. Whereas the owners are getting billions from taxpayers in terms of subsidies, have substantial expense write-offs which minimize any taxes, defer capital gain taxes for decades, own teams in perpetuity without any free market interference courtesy of their Congressionally awarded monopoly. The same owners who paid millions to bribe Congress to avoid paying minor league players a minimum wage.

I'm going to state a couple of things that will hopefully lend some closure to the some of the ongoing debates so that we can have some fresh new ones that are more productive. Probably, no chance, but I'm goin to try anyway. 1. We all have our own feeling on how the sox finished down the stretch. I think we can agree that we wished they finished on all cylinders. However what you do in the first 162 games ins NOT a good predicter of what you will do in the playoffs. For every team you can come with as an example to support you argument, you can find one that refutes it just as easily. You just have to put the best team out there under your current limitations and hope for the best. 2. The Kimbrel trade. It turned out to be a bad trade because it did. It was NOT an unreasonable trade on the day it was consummated. You can debated the value of trading controllable assets for short terms gains. Those are valid arguments. However the trade was not unreasonable. We traded and injured player and a reliever with a lot of potential having a bad year for the best available closer in the game. We also traded for another good reliever in Tepera. At the time, We had the best starters in the AL, if not in baseball. On Paper, we had the best bullpen as well. It looked like if we had a lead after 5 the game was over. This is a formula that has worked recently very well for clubs. This is a reasonable thing to do to win now. This is not my opinion, this is what every analyst on the mlb network was saying. This is what most analyst believed. This is what the dodgers, rays, & red sox wanted to do. but, the game isn't played on paper and it turned out bad. Trades don't always work out. The cardinals were lambasted for only acquiring washed up J.A. Happ & Jon Lester. Yet, those trades worked out (and were still awful trades). 3. record against winning clubs. This fallacy is a media talking point that has little meaning. In 162 games you are going to play hot where you can beat anybody and cold when you can lose to anybody. Some teams yo cannot beat because the matchup is always bad. You are going to play certain teams when you are hurt and other while they are hurt. The sox did not play bad against above .500 teams They played horrible in Houston and against the yankees. The won the season series against the cardinals, a's, redsox, & Jays. Split with the rays. Be beating the tribe they made them an under 500 team and get no credit, but had they lost the series to them they would be another above 500 team they lost (damned if they do damned if they don't situation. The beat a lot of other teams that were above 500 when we played them but didn't finish there. Lots of teams have won the world series with a sub 500 record against above 500 teams.

So let's not bother trying because on paper we are not the best team in baseball? Let's not try to improve at the trade deadline as we 'were never going to win it'. It may have escaped your attention but just winning the division is an achievement by White Sox standards, and back to back play off appearances has never been achieved before, but let's not bother because the Astros are better than us.

1. Incorrect. I hated the trade before it was made. 2. Houston was 5-2 vs the SOX before the TDL, and it wasn't even close. Sure, there were some pieces out with injury, but neither Moncada nor Eloy made the difference. Houston is/was that much better than the SOX, full stop. 3. There's incontrovertible evidence that it was doomed to failure: The SOX got their asses kicked. And it wasn't close enough for a RP, no matter HOW GOOD, to have made the difference. The only difference is that I knew it was doomed to failure beforehand, whereas you drank the kool-aid. 4. Who gives a shit what other teams wanted? The SOX needed much more to be ahead of their rivals at the TDL. LAD only needed a few minor touches to return to the WS. And while you said that RPs are usually "the most valuable pieces at the TDL," you should be MORE concerned with THIS org getting what THIS ORG needs to win. Clearly, it was never an expensive RP, and many of us knew this beforehand. 5. Here's a question for you: Are the SOX at the beginning, middle, or end of their window? If they were at "the last dance," where a Hail Mary, last-ditch trade to try to win "one more time" before the core goes and signs elsewhere, i might have been more supportive of this move. But given that I believe(d) that the SOX are/were more towards the beginning of the window, AND that this team was not as good as its post-season enemies, hated this move with the FIRE of 10,000 Arabian suns. 6. Once again, did you believe that Kimbrel ALONE would have made the difference? If so, please explain. This team was worse than Houston, worse than TB, and possibly, worse than Boston (with Sale coming back). Over in the NL, LAD and SF were flat-out better than this team. By my count, thats 6 teams in the way of a WS. A more conservative approach was warranted, and aiming for a more opportune season was the better move. 7. Well, as I knew beforehand, this team wasn't going to win the WS. And Kimbrel's only been good for ~30IP over the past 4 seasons, so he may not be "the best reliever" anymore. And he's aging, and this payroll can't support 2 expensive closers, with all the other gaping holes in the roster. Oh, and BTW, we paid 10 seasons of control for him.

I wouldn’t call it a ‘poor spot’ but we are in uncharted territory for this franchise. If they act like a major market club and push the payroll to $200M+ to fill out the roster during this competitive window then they are in great shape. If they start dumping productive but expensive players or papering over the roster holes with cheap washed up stop gaps then they were always pretenders. We as fans just have to hope they finally aren’t messing around.

TBH I have none right now that I have confidence in. They’ve set themselves into a poor spot right now with how the moves have stacked up. It might well be a “sell Giolito and Lynn after 2022 is the right move” situation, and those aren’t typically the type of moves they do.

Adam Duvall just hit a grand slam in game 5 of the World Series. He hit 38 homers during the season. He was acquired from the Marlins mid season for a journeyman catcher. He would have looked pretty good in RF for the Sox. While our FO was having wet dreams with Kimbrel, Atlanta was picking up 4 good outfielders relatively cheap: Duvall, Soler, Pederson and Eddie Rosario ( hitting 426 in the postseason). Great job Hahn!

I think there's some legit concern that the refs will end up not calling actual contact by a defensive player, but I really like the rule changes and it's improved the product so defenders won't be spooked into challenging shots or getting in front of a guy driving to the hole. Seeing Harden twist his body towards a defender, bump him, hear no whistle, then awkwardly throw the ball up into the general direction of the rim instead of attempting to score is refreshing, it was probably padding his scoring average by 5-8 ppg just by cheesing the rule exploit. That was hard to watch, I think they took note in FIBA ball watching Team USA have a hard time adjusting to not getting those calls.

Hollinger basically trashed it as the worst signing of the offseason. This tweet aged well:

Bulls looked dead in the water today down 19 in the third. They're probably gonna win by double digits. Crazy how good this team is.

I wouldn't prioritize one position over the other. I prioritize getting a LH or SH bat that has a high OBP, above average power, and can play his position well.

2nd Base. There are bodies you already have that can put on an OF glove and perhaps surprise you. There is nothing down in the farm for middle infield.

Devil's advocate. In the spirit of this thread, I'd say 2b. Here's why. I think a top-tier 2b (Merrifield/Semien/Story) with a platoon of Sheets/Engel/Vaughn in RF will give better production than Conforto/Castellanos and Leury/Hernandez/etc. Just my two cents.

Conforto remains the no-brainer. With him you can live with a Cesar type at 2B.

Fully agree he should be target #1 for the offense.

For me, I think the answer is hands-down RF. First & foremost, 2B is generally easier to fill in free agency than corner OF spots. Second, I think Jose Rodriguez has a much better chance of securing the long-term 2B spot in the next couple of years than any of our internal options for RF. Furthermore, when I look at free agency, it just feels like Conforto is a perfect fit for what this team needs. I have always loved Semien and would be ecstatic if we got him, but I’ll take the lefty bat with against an incredible track record against RHP all day everyday.

I still have no idea what the point of sending cash with Kimbrel to get a Kiermaier accomplishes...an ego-free GM (at least one completely desensitized to how Madrigal and Heuer will perform on the Northside) would admit we just got that one wrong and start over with a clean slate and exercise the buyout. It's like cutting off the nose to spite the face...or not walking away from casino because you just have to get back to $0 psychologically after taking heavy losses.

These forums have sure gotten classy. I was expecting to go the whole offseason without hearing about Pythagorean expectations.

I do not recall that being the sentiment of Rick Hahn when he said what he was looking for in a manager at the press conference announcing the firing of Renteria.

Everybody say it with me! TONY STINKS, TONY STINKS, TONY STINKS!

That is called a prayer. We needed to win games to get that 2 seed to have any chance against Houston as we don't pitch well there. Great teams fix issues as they arise and try not to wait until the post season happens to possibly win. The Dodgers won it all last year and didn't just let games play out, they brought in Max and Trea.

I struggle with both grades. La Russa failed to get the job done in October, but you can’t blame that on just him. That being said, some of the decisions he made in Houston were brutal and cost us significantly. He also made quite of a few mind-boggling decisions during the regular season, although he did get a little better with time. I also felt like we coasted a bit in the 2nd half and blew a great chance for HFA. To me, I’d give him a B- for the year and that exceeded my pre-season expectations. Hahn is also another one hard to grade. He acquired two All-Stars plus was able to retrain a third at a reasonable cost, but also entered the season having barely done anything to improve the offense and generally with little depth across the board. He also went for it with the Kimbrel trade at the deadline (which obviously flopped in hindsight), but failed to once again address the offense. I’d give him a B+ given the payroll constraints he had to work with, but clearly another bat would have been helpful down the stretch.

This isn't a b**** thread. OP clearly stated the rules. Please only post solutions/expectations and take whining to the general off-season thread. K, thanks.

So let me get this straight. You knew that our rotation was going to be completely useless against Houston in the playoffs (despite being the best in baseball at the TDL) and that our offense which was generally good for the most part and getting Robert & Eloy back was going to be mostly crickets in October? Is this all based on the seven game sample against the Astros when we had multiple men down? Also, how are the Braves beating the Astros right now when objectively speaking every baseball expert would have picked us as the superior team over Atlanta heading into the playoffs. Are you actually arguing that teams can’t get hot in the playoffs and actually win the whole thing? Ultimately it appears you are very upset about the price we paid for Kimbrel (which is a totally fair take) and are unable to be objective about any other element of the deal. Like seriously, I shouldn’t have to explain to you how valuable elite relief pitching is in the playoffs and that applies to all teams. And regardless of what you think, Kimbrel was the best reliever in baseball at the time with a 0.50 ERA and 100th percentile xwOBA. Arguably the best two organizations in all of baseball were highly interested in him and willing to pay a substantial price despite this “only been good for ~30 IP over the past four seasons” (which is both untrue and a poor attempt at hyperbole). If you know better than the Rays and Dodgers’ pro scouting staffs then you are clearly in the wrong profession.

Sox will have the best odds in baseball at winning their division when the odds come out in 2022. They're definitely in a poor spot.

It was the first point you made in the post. Also the shortest of your 7 talking points.

Well, when you say there is "incontrovertible evidence that it was doomed to failure," yes, you actually are saying that it was impossible. For the record, I went into the Astros series feeling that the Sox were not the favorite. But being the weirdo that I am, I wanted to actually see the games played instead of relying on your evidence that's not actually evidence.

Your hissy fits illustrate there is only one person getting “worked up”. The vast majority of players, perhaps a few hundred at most professional ball players are actually “millionaires”, playing in a finite window of opportunity. Divide and conquer, the lone ballgame you’ll never, ever see the parasitic billionaires tank.

If I'm understanding your argument correctly, it was quite literally impossible for the sox to win the world series this year, yes?

@South Side Hit MenSo while you wring your hands over the fate of millionaire players who would easily cross the picket lines of the plumber’s union to get their gold plated toilets unstuck from all their shit, I’ll worry about the concession workers, car lot attendants, local businesses and everyone else who actually works for a living and truly suffers with a work stoppage. Bring on scab baseball. Let some cop, or teacher, insurance agent, put on the uniform and step into a pro locker room. I’ll side with thousandaires struggling to pay the rent and put food on the table, you take the millionaires. Your support during the strike, and $10, will get their autograph of thanks.

In more normal circumstances, he would have had the benefit of AAA to get acclimated. I agree he will ultimately need to succeed against MLB, but he will need to play most every game to do so. Don't want him to get discouraged if he continues to have issues against RHP. If Tony is going to platoon Andrew, it will further prevent any growth. I'm good with either path (start at AAA or MLB) as long as he's pegged for regular playing time, and is not used in a platoon. Same goes for getting cute with Kopech in 2022, who should focus on starting from Day 1 of ST, though with intentional pace to allow him to pitch the final 3-4 months of the year. He shouldn't return to the bullpen, even for a few months to open the season.

I don’t see what we could possibly offer the Yankees for Torres and don’t see him as a viable option. As for RF, we should not be making any plans around Cespedes. We really need to stop dicking around with half-ass stopgaps and just sign Conforto. We need a LH hitter and there is unlikely to be someone potentially as impactful at that price point.

I once rented a corvette stingray in St. Petersburg. It’s impossible to drive those types of cars at a reasonable speed. Got a ticket going 87 in a either 65 or 70 zone. Never paid it since I live in California and was a young idiot. Probably have a warrant there. ?

We have to fill 2B and RF. But watching this year's WS and even the ALCS,, the bullpen staff is really key. Braves / Astros have use 12-11-10-11 pitchers in the games played. Last 2 games have been 3-2 and 2-0 using the 12 and 11. Now the lack of DH does have a minimal effect. In Boston/Houston, 12-10-10-10-16. Some of the games may be inflated w some blowouts. But it is safe to say, a team this year will use at least 5 pitchers per game while still playing back to back games which limits some pitchers in the pen. Although it backfired w Kimbrel, maybe Hahn had the right idea at the trade deadline. Also don't forget defense when we add at 2B and RF

I don’t even want to look up his numbers this year right now but MF was 3rd in the 2019 MVP voting and 2021 gets called a career year for him?

My dad had season tickets for 23 years, gave them up when I was born. I've probably been to 200 Hawks games in my life. I was at the WCF in Anaheim for the Shaw header goal and the longest playoff game in franchise history. I've got pictures of me wearing Hawks gear when I was 3 years old. I used to sit in class and come up with line combos (that included the likes of Igor Korolev, Pavel Vorobiev, Travis Moen and others). I have other connections to the franchise as well that I won't share here. It's really hard to "quit cold turkey" on a franchise that has been a big part of my life....but as I look at the franchise as it currently stands, there is nothing for me to root for. Fuck the players, fuck the coaching staff, fuck the ownership. It's rotten to the core.

first goldstein's redemption, next hostetler