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Can we stop blaming covid for poor performance? I’ve had that s%*# like 4 times already and I’m 38 years old and out of shape. Moncada had covid over two years ago, he’s fine.

Congrats to the twins. The suckiest bunch of sucks that have ever sucked.

Yes. I don't understand trading Gio. Gio is a guy that has proven he is both very interested in maximizing earnings and is also a student of the game that cares deeply about his performance. That is not a guy I am betting against in his final season before reaching free agency. Trading him at legitimately his lowest value he's been at any point in his White Sox tenure doesn't make any sense.

Doing my part. Starting Quantrill on my fantasy team, thereby guaranteeing failure.

Thank you for the wonderful advice. I was in the middle of about 20 tasks and taking a crap, scrolling / reading on my iPhone when I posted that. Was thinking that on a board like this someone would take the time to post the numbers, which they graciously did.

Regardless of how the end of this season goes -- fangraphs still gives us a 15% chance of making the playoffs -- many of us have started thinking about next year. I know it's a bit premature, but it's on my mind, so here goes. The White Sox cannot be fixed by next year. Let's look at the challenge player by player. I'll start by going around the diamond. This is written after 146 games. 1. Yasmani Grandal. C, 1B, DH. 2022. 88 games, only 55 as a starting catcher. 67 OPS+, -1 WAR. Only a .505 OPS as a lefty, .818 as a righty. 2021. 90 games, 78 as a catcher. 155 OPS+. 3.7 WAR. .909 OPS as a lefty, 1.031 OPS as a righty. Contract -- 1 year left at $18,250,000. Evaluation: Grandal went from being the best hitter on the team to nearly the worst. But he was still injured for a significant stretch of the season and caught fewer than half of the games. His contract makes him untradeable, but he's also completely unreliable. Plus, he hits worse as a lefty when the Sox are desperate for lefties. 2. Yoan Moncada. 3B. 2022. 90 games. 78 OPS+. .569 OPS as a lefty. .856 OPS as a righty. 2021. 144 games. 116 OPS+. .817 OPS as lefty. .700 OPS as a righty. Contract -- 2 more years at $17.8M, $24.8M. Club option in 3rd year for $25M. Evaluation -- his OPS+ has been under 100 in 2 of the last 3 years. He seems to be hurt a lot, and he has been atrocious this year against right handed pitching. Like with Grandal, when the Sox are desperate for lefty power, Moncada comes up short. Can you trade him? Off this year, no. Off last year, probably. But the Sox paid for 2019 breakout year and he hasn't come close since. Like Grandal, he's not a reliable player. 3. Tim Anderson. SS. 2022. 79 games. 108 OPS+. All-Star. 2021. 123 games. 118 OPS+ Contract -- Club options for $12.5M next year and and $14M in 2 years. Evaluation -- One of the main leaders of the team, he's never healthy for a full season. Since 2019 he's played in 123, 49 (of 60), 123, and 79 games. He made the All-Star team this year, but it was his worst OPS+ since 2018. He has great speed, but with regular leg injuries, you can't afford to run him. Given his shaky health, it's hard to see the Sox giving him a big contract after his next 2 seasons run their course. And you need a backup SS to cover at least 40 games. 4. Second base. The Sox have trotted out a lot of 2B over the last 2 years. 2022. Harrison 81 games, Garcia 46 games, Gonzalez 18 games, Mendick 6 games. 2021. Hernandez 53 games, Madrigal 53 games, Garcia 36 games, Mendick 28 games. Hernandez and Madrigal are gone, Sox have a $5.5M option on Harrison next year, is a free agent, Garcia has 2 more years at $5.5M each, Mendick has 4 years of arbitration, and Gonzalez is under 5 more years of control. Evaluation -- Garcia has an albatross of a contract. Sox cannot trade him, so they need to eat $11M to be rid of him and his 42 OPS+. Harrison, Gonzalez and Mendick could cover 2B, but they are all right handed and don't begin to address the lefty power shortage the Sox have. Kolten Wong looks like the best lefty free agent 2B, but he's 32 and declining. Adam Frazier has been subpar for San Diego and Seattle and is not an answer. 5. Jose Abreu. 1B. 2022. 144 games. 137 OPS+ 2021. 152 games. 124 OPS+ Contract. Was just under $20M, but he's a free agent next year at 36. Evaluation -- The ONLY Sox player who comes to work every day. He's the oldest regular, but has played 20 more games than AJ Pollock, 23 more than Andrew Vaughn, 48 more than Luis Robert, 54 more than Moncada, 65 more than Tim Anderson, and 73 more then Eloy Jimenez. This is the biggest problem with the White Sox -- they have only ONE position player who they can count on to play every day, and he's the oldest regular on the team and is a free agent. I'm going to end my analysis right here because Abreu tells the whole story. 1. Most Sox regulars cannot be relied on to stay A) healthy, and B) hit according to their expected hitting norms. 2. The Sox are built around Grandal, Moncada, Anderson, Robert, Jimenez, Abreu, and Vaughn. The best and most reliable of those players is a 1B/DH and a free agent. The first 5 guys are regularly injured and otherwise unable to match their hitting norms. If you bring back Abreu, you are still left with Jimenez, Vaughn, and Sheets, who should all be DH or 1B guys, but 2 of them have to play the field and weaken the defense. Plus, only one of them is a lefty. 3. It's not just the offense. On the pitching side, Lucas Giolito has regressed to being a sub-par starter. Johnny Cueto had a great bounce back year, but is a free agent, and can he be counted on next year? Dylan Cease is the ACE. Lance Lynn seems to be back to normal, but is older and has health issues. And Kopech seems okay, but his record was terrible and he's not fully stretched out or reliable to pitch an entire season. So that's 2 sold starters and a lot of question marks. 4. The bullpen looks like the best part of the team, especially if Crochet returns to form. Hendrix and Graveman are solid, Lopez has found his groove, Lambert has done quite well. Add back Crochet as a lefty and this is a strength. The bottom line is that the Sox can't really trade anyone for some reliable lefty starters who play good defense. They have Oscar Colas in the minors, but he's not ready for MLB. They could try some patchwork things, but it's not going to make Grandal, Moncada, Anderson, Robert and Jimenez into reliable everyday players. Of those 5, only Robert and Moncada play good defense. So, of course the Sox can let go of TLR (he should retire) and fire the hitting coach, but even if they had money they can't reliably win with this core. It's pretty sad as a Sox fan. But I think that's reality.

Sheets really shouldn't be an everyday player. I'd say setting aside Tony's mere presence, I believe the main reason the hitters have seen a resurgence is because lineups have become stabilized. Tony and the platoon evangelicals on Soxtalk are obsessed with this split or that supposed advantage. I'm of the mindset that you play your best nine most games, resting them about once a week, and no "Sunday lineup". Keep them at the same positions on the field and in the lineup. Players get continuity with the lineup, helps their fielding as well playing the same position nearly everyday. Someone posted Tony had something like 123 different lineups in 123 or 124 games. It's absolutely ludicrous. Also, Toronto is an extremely RHH lineup, but they win because they have good regulars and they play them consistently. Your best nine playing 130-140 games will give you your best results. Also helps that Leury is the last man on the bench, not a guy Tony is trying to plop in the lineup. Also helps showing up to the ballpark and knowing what your role will be baring an emergency, not on what Tony's gut is saying. You can look at every stating lineup with this link. https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2022-lineups.shtml Since Tony left: Aberu, Andrus, Moncada and Eloy are playing the same position every day. Gonzalez is playing most days OF Rotation - Vaughn, Pollock and Sheets, Vaughn for Sheets vs. LHP, Pollock to LF for Robert. Grandal catching 3 days on and one day off (Zavala). Miguel is not trying to be the smartest guy in the room. Not coming up with crazy lineup construction, not walking guys on 1-2 counts. Inserting pinch hitters and not saving his closers for a save stat. Being aggressive late in close games, not relying on push button roles and decisions. Giving the team energy, encouragement and motivation. In other words, he is doing his job.

No, no more putting guys in the outfield who can't play the outfield. This team needs to acquire two guys who can hit right handed pitching well and play corner outfield spots well. No more of Vaughn, Eloy or Sheets in the OF.

That Naylor blown game 6 run lead game is now looming large. Win that game and 2 out of 3 would win the tiebreaker. I shut that game off thinking there was no way they could lose.

I can pretty much guarantee the Twins will play us tough for the 6 games we have left with them. Of course, that will mean nothing if the Sox do not sweep Cleveland Tuesday through Thursday.

I'm with you on a lot of this, but disagree wholeheartedly that the Cardinals are not the team we should emulate or economically can match. The White Sox and Cardinals have had similar payrolls (sans the three "tanking" seasons), and the White Sox do not have a large market team like the Cubs in their division. The highest payrolls by decade for the Cardinals are $100M (2008), $163M (2019) and $163M (2021). The highest payrolls by decade for the White Sox are $121M (2008), $128M (2011) and $193M (2022). MLB Annual Payroll Ranks (World Series Years in Bold Italics, Division Titles in Bold, Tanking Years Stricken): Cardinals (2000-2022): 2000s (11, 9, 13, 8, 9, 6, 11, 10, 12, 13) 2010s (12, 10, 8, 12, 14, 12, 10, 14, 10, 7) 2020s (10, 10, 13) White Sox (2000-2022): 2000s (25, 14, 18, 22, 14, 13, 5, 5, 5, 11) 2010s (7, 12, 11, 23, 15, 16, 23, 29, 26) 2020s (17, 15, 7) The reason the Cardinals are consistently successful is the fact they have always had a solid organization. Ownership doesn't meddle in day to day or engage in feuds and pettiness, they hire the best front office available, and they have a scouting and development organization in place that identifies, develops and promotes quality cost effective players. They can also identify and trade for quality ML players in their prime (Goldschmidt, Arenado). The White Sox don't have any of that. The White Sox need that. It's the missing piece. It's the piece Cleveland and Tampa has so they can compete with a fraction of the White Sox and Cardinals payrolls. Hahn had 10 years to build an organization and has not come through. Kenny didn't either during his 12 years. The Cardinals consistently call up mid round draft picks who come up and kick ass. Where is White Sox Tommy Edman (2016 6th Round, 6.5 bWAR)? Where is White Sox Brendan Donvan (2018 7th Round, 3.2 bWAR)? Hell, where is White Sox Lars Nootbaar (2018 8th Round, 1.9 bWAR in 94 Games)? Nearly all of the White Sox young core was identified and largely developed externally, obtained when Hahn pawned off everything in 2016. The fact that Hahn wasn't able to supplement in part internally, and filling in the remaining gaps via free agency, is the core reason the Sox rebuild is stuck in neutral. I'll follow this up with a post or thread on how the 2022 White Sox were constructed.

Breaking down team statistics on FanGraphs, the primary reason for Cleveland's lead over the White Sox is the fact that their defense is Top 5 and the White Sox is Bottom 5. This is driven primarily by the White Sox' league worst outfield, and also a big drop in Tim Anderson's individual metrics year over year. The Sox did improve in catching, though much of the increase was traded away when the Sox swapped McGwire for yet another old ineffective RP with a multi-year contract. Pitching: Cleveland & Chicago have the exact 15.5 fWAR, tied for 10th across The MLB. SP Chicago 12th (10.9 fWAR), Cleveland 15th (10.0 fWAR) RP Cleveland 5th (5.6 fWAR), Chicago 10th (4.6 fWAR) Position Players: Overall, the teams are middle 10 across total fWAR, Cleveland 14th (18.6) & Chicago 19th (16.0). Hitting fWAR: Chicago has a slight advantage, 14th overall vs. Cleveland is 19th. Fielding fWAR: This is the primary difference this season. Cleveland is 3rd and Chicago 27th. Fielding Components: UZR Ultimate Zone Rating: Cleveland 36.8 (2nd) vs. Chicago -39.4 (30th) DRS Defensive Runs Saved: Cleveland + 68 (3rd) vs. Chicago -23 (24th) ARM OF Arm Runs / Throwing: Cleveland 8.3 (3rd) vs. Chicago -14.9 (30th) Positional Breakdown: Similar: First Base (Cleveland 5th, White Sox 11th); Shortstop (White Sox 21st, Cleveland 25th); Third Base (Cleveland 9th, White Sox 10th) Advantage White Sox: Catcher (Includes Pitch Framing White Sox 2nd vs. Cleveland 13th) Advantage Cleveland: Second Base (Cleveland 3rd, White Sox 21st); Right Field (Cleveland 17th, White Sox 30th); Centerfield (Cleveland 1st, White Sox 26th); Left Field (Cleveland 11th, White Sox 23rd). 2021 vs. 2022 - Significant Internal Changes Catching is the one area with significant improvement (12th to 2nd), driven primarily by replacing Zack Collins with Seby Zavala and and The Departed Reese McGwire. First Base (11th) and Third Base (10th both seasons) remained unchanged year over year. Second Base (23rd to 21st) White Sox Positions featuring a Year over Year Decline: Shortstop - Sox dropped from 10th to 21st this season, driven by both the quality of Tim Anderson's fielding (9.0 2021 vs. 1.0 2022). Elvis Andrus is an upgrade over 2021 options, and a defensive upgrade from Tim (ranked 7th last year vs. Tim's 12th). Tim needs to improve his fielding efforts or perhaps shift positions. Right Field - Went from bad (21st) to league worst (30th). They must never, ever play Vaughn or Sheets in RF ever again. Period. Center Field - Luis missed time both years, but also suffered a regression this season, from a slightly above average overall CF to below average. This drove the Sox to regress from 19th last season to 26th this season. Luis needs to get health, but also needs to significantly improve his efforts, improve play near the wall, and return to the promising defensive CF he showed glimpses of in 2020. Left Field - The White Sox were solid here last year (10th), but both Vaughn and Eloy have taken massive dumps in LF this season, and the overall rank dropped to 23rd. Pollock is below average, but the best of this pathetic bunch. It would behoove the Sox to have all four corner OFers (Sheets, Vaughn, Eloy and Pollock) gone from any starting OF roles in the future.

And Leury is not playing as much as with TLR at the helm.

The tweet in the comment you are responding to is from the beginning of the season lol

Since Tony left... Aj Pollock .268/.312/.479/.791 Yoan .333./359/.569/.927 Eloy .348./397/.710/1.108 (in 19 games played for the record) Grandal .205.294.364.658 Abreu .316.369.434.803 Vaughn .269.329.463.792 Harrison .333.385.417.801 Sheets .160.259.360.619 Out of the guys who have been starting essentially most games during this stretch, literally only Gavin Sheets is hitting at a level that is appreciably below their season performance. Almost everyone is above their season marks (6 of the 8), and Vaughn is right about at his averages. Sheets is significantly down.

Nah, another reason to hate the White Sox' season and offseason. It was always going to take 88 or more wins.

Sheets has an OPS of .708 this year PLUS he's a horrible defender. No legit contender would have him anywhere but as a reserve in the minors

I don't know what was wrong with Al Avila....I was very happy with the job he was doing there.

Can the Sox trade Pollock for a bad contract with 2 years left on it and then keep doing that every off season? Let's keep the residuals of the Kimbrel trade until at least 2030. It would make for a great proximate cause argument down the line.

[Narrator] Eloy returned to Left Field in 2023, only to be injured yet again.

I wouldn't be mad or frustrated with a second half breakout. I am disappointed that they're still going with 11 throw games.

They are going to have to play better defense. They are going to have to hit more homers. I don't know if things could have gone much worse than they did for them this year, and I don't know if things could have gone much better than they have for Cleveland, yet, here we are, and the Sox still have a shot. Not a big one, but if somehow they sweep them, the pressure will switch to being on Cleveland. Unless JR cuts the payroll drastically and LaRussa comes back, I can't see how the Sox won't be the division favorites next season, unless Hahn does worse this coming offseason than he did the last one.

Can't move him. Even if the unthinkable happened and we received a front office overhaul, I think they still essentially run it back one more year. So, if you trade Gio, you are likely right back in the market for a vet starter. You won't find anyone priced similarly that you feel better gambling on for one year nor would that player offer you any control like you'd have with the QO/Comp on Gio.

Nevermind about those matchups. They just announced it. Sox are going Cease Lynn Cueto

Using counting stats as an argument against him is a pretty poor argument, especially when he's had a revolving door of hitters ahead of him and otherwise proven to be an elite RBI player. He's quietly having one of the best seasons of his career and having to replace another 4.0 WAR on this team will be really fucking hard when there's so much else to attend to. Unless you're advocating to blow it all up, getting rid of your best position player makes 0 sense right now.

This is the running joke of the bears. They are rebuilding, and still the fans cant let the rebuilding team figure out what is there and what isn't. Its the 2nd game of tearing it down and people have declared a 2nd year QB dead. You have to develop him and see what happens. If it fails in a year or so and he shows no improvement then sure whatever. But my god everyone bitches about not have a QB then the minute they try to develop one you don't have the appetite to watch the warts and struggles. This season is not going to be a winner no matter what you think. Let it play out and see if they can get better. What works, what doesn't. This is staff and personnel as well.

Maybe if you were a Universal Moderator I'd care more about what you think of me. But you're only a Global Moderator. I'm sure your mom still thinks you're a good boy though.

The white Sox were generally average this year in terms of health league wide, and frankly healthier than they should have been given the age of their roster which was among the 10 oldest in baseball. If your plan involves replacing the one guy who is never on the IL and you are expecting them to turn into one of the healthiest teams in baseball to get better…well I hope the problem was the training and coaching staff, because otherwise they could easily be more injured next year.

Yep. So far the team hasn't been sold to a baseball intelligent owner who wants to be like the Dodgers, Rays. or Cardinals.

Eloy is invaluable to this offense. You simply cannot trade him, because you can't replace that bat.... The value coming back won't be even remotely close to what the Sox would give up. He's as natural a power hitter as there exists in the MLB today. He plays 150 games and he's hitting 35-45 every season.

Of course. Do you know how hard it is to build a 2nd place team? What an accomplishment. He tells ownership this every day to remind them what a good job he’s done.

I’m sure it’s both, but some of the plays he made tonight were horrible for a professional. The past the line of scrimmage play was fun bad. He also desperately needs to learn to throw a ball away instead of taking a huge loss.

Come on man we all know AJ is not my cousin. I picked the monicker because he was key to the 2005 team, gutsy, a pain in the ass to opponents and he stole 1st base in the playoffs ???

He's at 4.0 WAR, his highest since 2017

I get tired of the lets play GM threads. One simple thing is to not rely on NL players making a difference. No Nimmo, No Contreras. So far it hasn't worked. No NL arms either. Don't ever listen to Tony. Trade only to get rid of players because the Sox are bad at trades and don't expect value. Trades guys like Leury for a 20.00 era pitcher who will fill the farm system. Getting a haul for x player is fantasy sports. Continue to dumpster dive. They only thing they are good at. See Andrus, Cueto. Fire the whole coaching staff. Unfortunately those again will be ex players. Keep Gordon out of the booth. Stop spending money on the bullpen.

I also nominate my cousin AJ for color analyst when Stoney retires. By the way he’s cutting down on his schedule I don’t think he’ll go beyond 2 more years. Predicting 2024 as he last season. Blackjack McDowell wouldn’t be a bad alternative is my cousin doesn’t want the job.

Abreu is on another planet compared to what Baines, Fisk and Konerko were at the time the Sox cut and first trade Baines, respectively, and gave Konerko one last contract. Abreu has a 4.0 bWAR, just short of double that of the second best Sox hitter (Robert 2.1). Cease is the only Sox who has outperformed Abreu (5.7) this season. Abreu was solid last season (3.0 bWAR), and MVP in 2020. Baines had a 2.6 bWAR in 1989, and 1.3 and 1.7 the two prior years. Fisk was 45 and a negative 0.7 bWAR when he was released. Konerko had a negative 1.3 bWAR before his final one year 2014 contract. If he returns on a one year plus team option, I think they should bring Abreu back. He's not going to get a higher offer externally, and Jerry will do whatever Abreu wants (play or move to the organization in a different capacity). Quite frankly, he's earned it, the only Sox player over the past decade who has walked the walk.

You cannot do that to Abreu, he’s still in great shape, yes, he ALWAYS starts out slowly, but he’s clutch and deserves at least next year. Until these guys prove that they can stay on the field, we need Abreu on the field and especially in the clubhouse. You cannot disrespect him like we did Carlton Fisk, Harold Baines and a few others. He is White Sox through and through and he’s a great ambassador to show the Cubans that the White Sox is the place to be. If you guys don’t think we got Robert to sign because Abreu whispered in his ear about the organization. At his age he’s in great shape and clutch. We’ve got to give him 2023.

I agree. The man has easy power and you can't teach that. In the poll done here awhile ago asking which player would be the best offensive weapon going forward, I voted Eloy and I have not changed from that opinion.

Sweep Cleveland or get your golf clubs polished.

We've played the kind of baseball everyone on this board thought we could for the past 3 weeks. It's hard to win every game in baseball no matter who you play. There's been some bad games mixed in there, but the overwhelming majority of it has been pretty good. This team waited too long to make a change at manager. Had they been playing this way for the past 2 months, we'd probably be where the Guardians are right now.

Hahn is just so bad. And fired. He's bad and fired.

I know what it was. It was the same guys at the helm that created the mess in the 1st place, bolstered by Reinsdorf's bromance with TLR . All we kept hearing about is how the Sox upgraded so much behind the scenes. Better scouting and development, more slo mo camera's ,more biomechanics, Katz the new pitching savior and on and on. But when it came time to actually use all that stuff in regards to handling Rodon it was the same old story. Big hard throwing stud getting stronger as the game went on , finishing strong, throwing a complete game no hitter. Never mind the fact that he pitched only 42 innings the previous 2 years combined or that his health was at stake. Nope just treat him like Sandy Koufax. Burn him up, then he becomes the fall guy for being the same old Rodon, too injury prone to give a QO or a contract. Fans don't look at how we actually used him. All they see is Rodon not able to pitch as usual and we endlessly debate about how unstable he is and Sox management knows him best and the front office walks away scot-free to pump more guff into our heads about lineup balance, better defense and more starting pitching as goals for the off season.

I'm not sure what it was. You would have thought the two season series would have raised some warning flags or sirens at 35th & Shields. Maybe because the Astros were a .500ish team for 60 odd games in 2020 before turning it on into the post-season? No Verlander? I can't figure it out. You could go up and down the day to day line-ups and know we were going to be in for a world of hurt, particular Lynn. The Astros' veteran hitters were nightmare match-ups for guys like Rodon and Cease, because they were so patient and largely didn't swing at pitches outside of the zone. Maybe having some pressure from the Twins and Tigers and Indians' pitching will keep the Sox front office and coaching staff more honest this time around? That and the fact that the Blue Jays, Mariners, Twins, Tigers and Rangers should be MUCH better than they were last season. And that still leaves the Yankees, Red Sox, Rays and Astros to deal with.

The LaRussa signing is working out better than I could have ever imagined

Whatever Jose decides to do I wish him the absolute best whether it's being with his family, moving on or staying here. He has earned that right. And this also is all the more reason for Vaughn to stay here. Sox will be fine at 1B going forward.

I think Ron actually likes Abreu quite a bit. It's just that he likes getting a rise out of people even more.

That's not your worst theory.

Definintely a weird change in enthusiasm for being a White Sox for life he were to continue playing.