Sox trade Cristian Mena to Arizona for OF Dominic Fletcher

[caulfield12]

Gio Gonzalez comes out of retirement to pitch for the Sox three times after being traded away twice…

[WhiteSox2023]

54 minutes ago, fathom said:

This trade seems way better to me than the Santos one

I like both trades.  Mena will be lucky to make the majors as a reliever.  I don’t get the love for him.  He will likely go the way of Norge Vera.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

This trade seems way better to me than the Santos one

Why do you not like the Santos trade?!?  The Sox don’t have a very good history with arm/elbow soreness.  If usually leads to surgery like @Lip Man 1 keeps saying.  Regardless, a good closer on this team for the next couple years should always be trade bait, just like the next man up, Jordan Leasure.

Edited February 4 by WhiteSox2023

[DirtySox]

50 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I like both trades.  Mena will be lucky to make the majors as a reliever.  I don’t get the love for him.  He will likely go the way of Norge Vera.

I don't know how you are likening Mena to Vera. Mena is a 20 year old that has reached AAA upon 2 full years in affiliated ball. He's 7 years younger then the league average. He has a gift for spinning the ball with his breaking stuff, and strikes out a mess of dudes. I'm not worried about the command yet. It isn't horrible and he's only 20 years old. The main knock on him is the fastball is light and maybe too hittable.

Vera has pitched a grand total of 69 innings now, has much worse control then Mena, has been hurt consistently and his stuff has backed up. He's also 3 years older and has pretty much peaked in High-A. They are not alike at all. Have you watched either of them pitch before?

Edited February 4 by DirtySox

[greg775]

8 hours ago, chw42 said:

Did we just get the OF version of Nick Madrigal?

Can a 5-6 guy lift and pull or do we get 10 HRs combined from LF and RF all season? Not that I like lift and pull.

[mac9001]

7 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Fletcher put up 0.7 bWAR in 102 PAs. He is not replacement level. 

Dude had a BABIP of .377 and and .407 against RHP. Unless he can walk on water that not happening again. He might hit just enough to be viable but anytime you depend on a player's value to be primarily derived from their defense you're going to be disappointed.

[caulfield12]

At 5-foot-6, 185 pounds, Fletcher has nevertheless managed to cut an imposing figure at the plate since Arizona drafted him in 2019. In more than 1,600 minor league appearances, he has hit .295/.366/.474 with 42 home runs and 201 RBIs, and in 28 games with the Diamondbacks last season, Fletcher hit .301/.350/.441 with a pair of home runs and 14 RBIs. The younger brother of Atlanta utilityman David Fletcher, the left-handed hitter will compete for right-field at-bats, with All-Star Luis Robert Jr. in center and Andrew Benintendi in left.

Arizona traded from a position of strength, with All-Star Corbin Carroll, Yuli Gurriel, Alek Thomas, Jake McCarthy and the recently signed Joc Pederson all outfielders. Mena, 21, throws a hard curveball, a low-to-mid-90s fastball and will provide upper-level rotation depth after striking out 156 in 133.2 innings between Double A and Triple A last season.

espn.com

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, DirtySox said:

I don't know how you are likening Mena to Vera. Mena is a 20 year old that has reached AAA upon 2 full years in affiliated ball. He's 7 years younger then the league average. He has a gift for spinning the ball with his breaking stuff, and strikes out a mess of dudes. I'm not worried about the command yet. It isn't horrible and he's only 20 years old. The main knock on him is the fastball is light and maybe too hittable.

Vera has pitched a grand total of 69 innings now, has much worse control then Mena, has been hurt consistently and his stuff has backed up. He's also 3 years older and has pretty much peaked in High-A. They are not alike at all. Have you watched either of them pitch before?

Vera, Mena, they will both be just another failed international signing of a starting pitcher.  
Would you like to provide a list of internationally acquired starting pitchers that HAVE panned out for the Sox? 

Edited February 4 by WhiteSox2023

[caulfield12]

43 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Vera, Mena, they will both be just another failed international signing of a starting pitcher.  
Would you like to provide a list of internationally acquired starting pitchers that HAVE panned out for the Sox? 

Jesus Pena lol

Jose Quintana well sorta

Hector Mendoza and Carlos Torres.

 

Well...there's nobody.

Yosimar Cousin.

Edited February 4 by caulfield12

[bmags]

6 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

I like both trades.  Mena will be lucky to make the majors as a reliever.  I don’t get the love for him.  He will likely go the way of Norge Vera.

See this annoys the hell out of me.

The reason many, including myself, liked Mena is because he actually pitched. He has been durable, he had pitched young for the league throughout his career. 
 

The problem with Mena is you can’t say “if he just continues on this trajectory with more experience he can succeed”… because his fastball isn’t quite there and his breaking stuff isn’t elite enough.

He’s also 6’2”, and this is where smarter people than me should project whether his body type is athletic enough and has room to fill out more to add some power.

But the thing with pitching prospects is them randomly just getting a velo increase happens. It turned Davis Martin from nothing to a feasible MLb starter. Now do that do a 22 year old who actually is comfortable with 4 pitches?

Norge Vera was stuff first who never pitched and never gets outs. He could have a great year this year and be three years away because he’s pitched so little.

In short your reference was bad.

[bmags]

4 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Vera, Mena, they will both be just another failed international signing of a starting pitcher.  
Would you like to provide a list of internationally acquired starting pitchers that HAVE panned out for the Sox? 

Mena being traded for a player the Sox like means he was a successful signing. 

[zisk]

To all members blasting Mena. We will rue this day very soon. 26 year old prospects under 5'7" 

rarely move the needle. 20 year olds in AAA do.

[oldsox]

15 hours ago, chetkincaid said:

He’s 5’6” with average speed. That doesn’t sound like a good combination for an outfielder. 

As Alex Karras once said, He's small but he's slow.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, zisk said:

To all members blasting Mena. We will rue this day very soon. 26 year old prospects under 5'7" 

rarely move the needle. 20 year olds in AAA do.

There were warts with both, but generally agree, although rue the day may be a bit much.A lot of people here were praising the addition of Josh Barfield when Getz added him to the staff. You have to figure this trade was his baby, so it will be interesting to see how it turns out.  What I loved about both trades was that they both were old school trades where money had nothing to do with it.

Edited February 4 by Dick Allen

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, zisk said:

To all members blasting Mena. We will rue this day very soon. 26 year old prospects under 5'7" 

rarely move the needle. 20 year olds in AAA do.

Mena sits like 92 as a 20 year old. I don’t doubt he’ll be a big leaguer, but he had back of the rotation upside with control issues. I get the concerns with Fletchers projectability and limited upside, but he’s ready now and is likely a significant upgrade over anything else the Sox have in RF. Also a nice platoon fit with Pillar. 

[SoxBlanco]

Pretty crazy that about half of our opening day 26-man roster has been acquired in the last three months. I like it. 

[WestEddy]

7 hours ago, mac9001 said:

Dude had a BABIP of .377 and and .407 against RHP. Unless he can walk on water that not happening again. He might hit just enough to be viable but anytime you depend on a player's value to be primarily derived from their defense you're going to be disappointed.

Yeah, that .377 BABIP is consistent with his minor league career. Some guys just hit. I don't have to pretend that every single player will slash .000/.000/.000 to protect myself from getting disappointed. 

[Snopek]

7 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Vera, Mena, they will both be just another failed international signing of a starting pitcher.  
Would you like to provide a list of internationally acquired starting pitchers that HAVE panned out for the Sox? 

Come on man. By that logic they should never make another international SP signing again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This move legit terrifies me.  How does trading Mena for a 26 year old, 5’ 6” OF enhance our long-term outlook?  Like I get this guy isn’t completely powerless, but we now have a pair of contact-oriented hitters in our OF corners.  This just seems like such a low ceiling move and I struggle to see the broader strategy here.  And now I’m actually worried that Getz places very little value on power.

Terrifies you ? A bit of hyperbole , yes?

Doesn't seem as complicated or mystifying as you're making it out to be.

You traded a young fast rising pitching prospect who rose fast because he can pitch beyond his years in a bad farm system so pretty easy to advance. Is he talented  ? Sure young enough to gain more command, maybe throw a little harder but hardly a surefire MLB SP. It is the 135 innings he's already pitching at his age that's most impressive. But this is a slow process of trying to build the MLB team and farm system at the same time. Your perception of Mena makes you strongly dislike the trade but he could end up a nothing. A lot of people didn't like trading that kid for Mazara either. Much ado about nothing as it turned out.

Dominic Fletcher appears to be an MLB hitter. Sox don't have many of those in the OF who can also field. He's likely a minimum 2 War guy with 500 ABs . He has 6 years of control so that's pretty valuable.

Getz had to get an OFer that fit his mold of defense. If you wanted a power hitting LH OF who plays good defense you weren't going to find one for Mena. That was supposed to come in a Cease trade. Maybe it still will along with a pitcher to replace Mena. But in the meantime you got the most talented hitter plus defense 4th OF guy for 6 more yrs. But right now he will be the starter.

I'll guess if he gets 500 ABs and he's 2nd or 3rd among Sox position players with around 2.5 War.

Getz likes doing multiplier trades. Bummer, Mena, Santos got back how many guys ? 9 and a draft pick right ?

The 2024 and beyond Sox did get better with this trade and the coming Cease trade will perhaps fill the need for higher upside guys and a pitcher to replace Mena.

[2Deep]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Terrifies you ? A bit of hyperbole , yes?

Doesn't seem as complicated or mystifying as you're making it out to be.

You traded a young fast rising pitching prospect who rose fast because he can pitch beyond his years in a bad farm system so pretty easy to advance. Is he talented  ? Sure young enough to gain more command, maybe throw a little harder but hardly a surefire MLB SP. It is the 135 innings he's already pitching at his age that's most impressive. But this is a slow process of trying to build the MLB team and farm system at the same time. Your perception of Mena makes you strongly dislike the trade but he could end up a nothing. A lot of people didn't like trading that kid for Mazara either. Much ado about nothing as it turned out.

Dominic Fletcher appears to be an MLB hitter. Sox don't have many of those in the OF who can also field. He's likely a minimum 2 War guy with 500 ABs . He has 6 years of control so that's pretty valuable.

Getz had to get an OFer that fit his mold of defense. If you wanted a power hitting LH OF who plays good defense you weren't going to find one for Mena. That was supposed to come in a Cease trade. Maybe it still will along with a pitcher to replace Mena. But in the meantime you got the most talented hitter plus defense 4th OF guy for 6 more yrs. But right now he will be the starter.

I'll guess if he gets 500 ABs and he's 2nd or 3rd among Sox position players with around 2.5 War.

Getz likes doing multiplier trades. Bummer, Mena, Santos got back how many guys ? 9 and a draft pick right ?

The 2024 and beyond Sox did get better with this trade and the coming Cease trade will perhaps fill the need for higher upside guys and a pitcher to replace Mena.

This post makes too much sense.

[Chicago White Sox]

13 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Terrifies you ? A bit of hyperbole , yes?

Doesn't seem as complicated or mystifying as you're making it out to be.

You traded a young fast rising pitching prospect who rose fast because he can pitch beyond his years in a bad farm system so pretty easy to advance. Is he talented  ? Sure young enough to gain more command, maybe throw a little harder but hardly a surefire MLB SP. It is the 135 innings he's already pitching at his age that's most impressive. But this is a slow process of trying to build the MLB team and farm system at the same time. Your perception of Mena makes you strongly dislike the trade but he could end up a nothing. A lot of people didn't like trading that kid for Mazara either. Much ado about nothing as it turned out.

Dominic Fletcher appears to be an MLB hitter. Sox don't have many of those in the OF who can also field. He's likely a minimum 2 War guy with 500 ABs . He has 6 years of control so that's pretty valuable.

Getz had to get an OFer that fit his mold of defense. If you wanted a power hitting LH OF who plays good defense you weren't going to find one for Mena. That was supposed to come in a Cease trade. Maybe it still will along with a pitcher to replace Mena. But in the meantime you got the most talented hitter plus defense 4th OF guy for 6 more yrs. But right now he will be the starter.

I'll guess if he gets 500 ABs and he's 2nd or 3rd among Sox position players with around 2.5 War.

Getz likes doing multiplier trades. Bummer, Mena, Santos got back how many guys ? 9 and a draft pick right ?

The 2024 and beyond Sox did get better with this trade and the coming Cease trade will perhaps fill the need for higher upside guys and a pitcher to replace Mena.

It terrifies me because Getz doesn’t appear to value power all that much and we are probably going to get the least amount of HRs in the corner OF spots of any team in baseball.  And if all goes well, this is our OF alignment for the next four years.  Where is all the power coming from?  So yes, I find the early signs of roster construction to be highly concerning.

Edited February 4 by Chicago White Sox

[WestEddy]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

A lot of people didn't like trading that kid for Mazara either. Much ado about nothing as it turned out.

I can still hear the wailing about trading 'infield depth' in Jake Peter for Joachim Soria back in 2017. 

Everybody mocks the guys who express there's some talent in the system, but when we trade some, we gave up too much. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Dominic Fletcher has hit 42 minor league homers. He's not just a little slappy guy. 

[GreenSox]

In the highlight reel, Fletcher drives the ball pretty well; doesn't look like Jerry Owens.

I like who we got for Mena better than who/what we got for Santos.  Prefer trading away Santos than trading away Mena. 

So, if I had my druthers, it would have been Santos (perhaps via Seattle) for Fletcher.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Dominic Fletcher has hit 42 minor league homers. He's not just a little slappy guy. 

How many HRs do you expect to get from him and Benintendi next year?  If you put the baseline at 25, I’m probably taking the under and that’s pretty terrible output for a corner OF.  For example, the average team got 43 HRs out of their corner OF spots and the 75th percentile was at 37.5 HRs.  Only two teams got less than 25 HRs out of their corner OFs and that was us and the Guardians.