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The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of rocking both Eloy & Vaughn in the OF corners. As such, the Sox need to prioritize adding a left-handed, power hitting RF who can at least be averagely defensively. And the more and more I think about it, Michael Conforto is 100% the guy we should be targeting. One way or the other, the front office needs to find a way to get this done, because I don’t see a trade option that fits all three criteria (not optimistic that Austin Meadows can meet the defensive criteria). For the sake of this exercise, let’s assume we sign Conforto to a multi-year deal that locks down RF for the near future. This would leave the following corner guys under control: Player | 2022 Age | Handedness | Control Left | AAV | 2021 wRC+ Jose Abreu (1B/DH) | 35 | RH | 1 | $18.0M | 126 Eloy Jimenez (LF/DH) | 25 | RH | 5 | $12.8M | 101 Andrew Vaughn (1B/OF/DH) | 24 | RH | 5 | NA | 94 Gavin Sheets (1B/OF/DH) | 26 | LH | 6 | NA | 125 Jake Burger (3B/1B/DH) | 26 | RH | 6 | NA | 120 That’s a ton of talent for a handful of spots and it’s clear at least one or two guys would need to be moved (primarily to fill other needs). Just to get this off the table, but zero chance they trade Abreu, so let’s consider him a lock for 1B next year. That leaves the remaining four guys to cover LF and DH and possibly provide some depth at 1B & RF. To me, I have zero interest in moving Eloy. He has by far the highest offensive ceiling on the entire team and put up a 139 wRC+ season as recently as 2020. He’s also the second youngest of the group and is under control for the next five years at a very reasonable rate. I get the defensive / health concerns, but for a team looking to improve against RHP he is simply not a guy we can afford to move IMO. When it comes to the remaining three, I think Burger is all but a certainty to be moved this offseason. His ability to play an ok 3B makes him the unicorn of the group and expands the pool of teams that might have interest. I’m 100% convinced he gets traded and likely for a controllable reliever. I truly believe in Burger’s offensive talent, but there are just too many guys ahead him in the pecking order and we have too many holes on the roster to keep him around as as depth piece. That leaves Vaughn & Sheets, neither guy I would like to move. And in a perfect world we’d keep both of them around and simply try to rotate them in at DH, 1B, LF, & RF. As we’ve in recent years, depth is incredibly important and this would be a possible to accomplish that. The challenge I see is twofold. First, it just seems like Andrew would get the short end of the stick and end up a platoon bat. Second, as alluded to many times, we have too many holes and not enough financial flexibility to fill them all in free agency. If a trade needs to be made to fill an important hole, it’s very clear IMO that Vaughn is the guy who will be able to bring back such a piece. I don’t want to see him go, but I’d rather move for him at full value then trade Sheets for 50 cents on the dollar, as the more I watched Gavin the more I became I believer of his ability to hit RHP incredibly well. Hopefully Uncle Jerry will push the payroll beyond the $170M figure I’ve got cemented in my head, but if not, I’d be willing to dangle Andrew out there if that’s what it took to strength the team.

"Spectacular" was used to describe what they don't provide.

Dude, you need to quit hitting the poppy.

Nobody seems to mention that Eloy was bad offensively the last month of the season. I don't know what happened. He seemed to have lost his power. Was he hurt? I hope he regains his power in 2022. If not, he's not going to help the team much.

Ban him. This has gone way too far. The troll posts about Abreu year after year after year, and now a troll post about becoming a Cubs fan? This is so dumb. If moderators sit by and continue to tolerate this behavior year after year I seriously don’t know what the actual point of having moderators is. He’s laughing at everyone on this site, and pissing all over Sox fans with every post.

At best, you get a reliever for him. He has more value to the White Sox…

Boy these Astros suddenly don't look unbeatable

must be nice to have a starting pitcher who isn't a fucking choker

Vaughn LF. Eloy DH. Abreu 1B. Sheets bench/occasional starter/injury fill in. Sign a real RF. Completely unconcerned about Burger - he has two option years still - stash him in AAA until needed. easy peasy.

I learned at Soxtalk that Eloy is left handed.

Here are your FA corner lists: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/10/previewing-the-2021-22-free-agent-class-corner-outfield.html Pretty underwhelming tbh. I also think the dugout hit to Eloy lingered far more than we imagined. Up until that point he was a destroyer of baseballs and cratered immediately. Imo if you trade him, he will reach his star potential somewhere else.

The CBA is expiring which means the Players Union and MLB have to come together to discuss a new contract. There will be a slew of changes to the game and how players are compensated that will need to be ironed out by the end of the year. Unfortunately if they dont come to an agreement then all baseball activity is halted until they do. Disagreements in 1994 cancelled the season for example. Players are upset that they arent being compensated fairly for how much money the game is bringing in. TV rights and gambling have been incredibly profitable for the owners, however the players dont receive anything there. It could get ugly.

Vaughn was very bad in the OF. The first half he was about average but he also got very lucky that he basically didn't get any 3 and 4 star catch opportunities, he mostly got 1 and 2s which admittedly he did do well. However in the second half his lack of speed was exposed. Overall he was at - 4 in statcast outs above average in the OF (98th out of 125). In lf he was 28th out of 41. Don't get me wrong, he is playable there but he is a distinctly below average defender and probably better suited for first or DH. I'd like him to keep playing some OF but if he is playing full time in left the Sox need a plus defender in right especially since the Sox pitching staff is a fly ball pitcher staff (6th highest FB rate in a 2021). With that many FB pitchers (which isn't bad, fly balls cause homers but are also caused by the high 4 seamers and big breakers which are creating Ks) you simply need a better OF and leury certainly isn't the answer either (albeit despite a few blunders leury still is a way better OF than Vaughn - +1 oaa for leury vs - 4 for Vaughn, but you don't want his bat there)

If we learned anything in 2020, its that depth is an asset.

Did you just use the word “spectacular” to describe the OF defense that Eloy, Vaughn, and Sheets provide?

He was recovering from an injury that I believe was likely to sap into his power. At least until he can rebuild it in the offseason. Zero reason to doubt Eloy isn’t the guy we always though he was.

I honestly enjoyed this season more than any I can remember since 2005(06 was super fun until the swoon). It ended with massive disappointment but I went to four games this season with and without family, watched an incredible FOD game, met a lot of fun people along the way. I hope next season they are blessed with health luck and we can see this team take off.

Eloy, Vaughn, and Sheets all play a solid if not spectacular defense. They handle the basic play very dependably IMO. Over the years I have seen many big bats with bad gloves hidden in the outfield as they need to play somewhere. These guys are considerably better than that.

Many people have mentioned this

Burger is a nothing burger. Trade him for a new golf cart for Toney. Vaughn can play backup dh and whatnot. Not sure if we get a healthy Engel back. Maybe surgery in the cards?

When I suggest a platoon of Vaughn and Sheets `I am sure to hear about them not having the necessary speed. While it's obvious that we would like a Robert at each position...that is not financially feasible. When I consider a Leury in RF vs a Vaughn/Sheets I can't see very many runs saved by Leury. These guys need to be utilized until Jose's retirement happens IMO. Spend the money we have on 2nd base and pitching.

I'd add Eloy to the list, and Grandal would be best used with significant playing time at 1B and DH to keep his bat and legs fresh. The problem is Eloy and Vaughn have not hit well in the DH hole, Eloy is adamant he isn't a DH, and makes poor decisions in LF (both strategic and in terms of health). If they could get a significant return on Eloy with a potential NL DH spot next season, I'd consider it. Sheets can hit in the DH role. The problem is Jerry/Tony will keep Abreu around for however many years possible, and he could be taking at bats away from more productive players 2023 and beyond, similar to Konerko's final contract with the Sox (4 seasons, 0.7 bWAR per season, just under $10M per season).

Chicago Sky one win away from their first championship in franchise history.

Like my post. Like my post. Like my post. Like my post. I must win the day! Oh, did I tell you to like my post yet? Like my post. Like my post. I’m winning! Like my post.

I edited the thread title so people would know that no one is overreacting to the ALDS. See, we mods/admins do stuff!

The Sox have basically a logjam of those 4 bat first guys who probably should only play DH or first. Out of those Vaughn was clearly the worst (94 wrc+), however he also is the highest regarded guy of those other than Jose plus he has actually shown in spurts what he is capable of (134 wrc+ in July). He also was struggling with some stuff like pitches on the outer half and righties in general but in spurts he showed that he could do better against them so he probably was still learning the game as skipping the high minors probably did show with him. Vaughn was basically learning on the job what he should have learned in AA and AAA and considering that he did OK. Thus I think Vaughn does have the most upside and Should be given a run from the start next season. That leaves us with 3. Jose had some inconsistencies but overall a solid season at a 126 wrc+. He also kept his k rate and posted a career high 9% walk rate and his statcast metrics were solid too. On the flip side he is getting older and could fall of a cliff but I don't see the Sox not giving him another run. After 2022 it could be over though for him. Sheets and burger both did really well in majors and minors (both each like a 120-130 wrc+ at both levels). Obviously in the majors they were put in favorable spots and a full time run could have exposed weaknesses but still their overall work was solid. What should the Sox do with them? Both are in their mid 20s and shouldn't be in the minors any longer. I think they should keep sheets as he is a lefty and the roster is very right handed and trade burger. I wonder what his value is though, he did very well and teams might not want a 26 yo corner bat with two Achilles tears. So if it comes to getting something back maybe trading someone else might make more sense.

Of course Keuchel is better at holding runners. Look at how much practice he got.

Sheets had 1/3 of the team's extra base hits in the postseason despite only playing in 3 of the games. He's the one guy who legitimately came up big in the big moments and Soxtalk wants to send his ass back to AAA so we can shove Eloy and Vaughn into the same lineup.

Goddamnit. I am doing a terrible job of taking a sabatical but I read some of this stuff in this thread and I have thoughts. 1) We don't need a fulltime catcher. We need a back up, and I would do everything I can to sign Maldonado for that, but Yasmani Grandal is a really good defensive catcher. He needs to get better at blocking pitches but his framing is excellent. And to be honest, the reason the Astros were able to run at will on him is not his fault but the fault of the pitchers. Pudge Rodriguez in his prime would not have been able to throw these runners out. The pitchers did such an awful job of holding them on. Ozzie pointed this out. The only pitcher it seems who is somewhat good at this is Keuchel. He works quickly and he has a pretty solid pickoff move. But the rest are really bad at this. They need to get better at it. 2) It would be awesome if we got Scherzer but I'm kind of torn about even trading Keuchel. Keuchel was atrocious but its very likely that we could see a bounce back year. Dude finished fifth in Cy Young voting in 2020. And had a solid first half. That being said, if they can find a suitor and get something back in value, I would do it. To be honest, I think adding another starting pitcher isn't a priority. These guys are who they were this season. And with more experience in the postseason, they will get better. 3) Eloy shouldn't be traded. This is such an overreaction. LaRussa actually got an A- from Fangraphs for his lineup construction in the playoffs. But I do think with Abreu and him, you should break them up in the order. Let's say we get someone like a McNeil (let me dream for a second), my lineup would be something like this. TA McNeil Abreu Luis Eloy Grandal Moncada Sheets Vaughn Eloy's struggles this year were pretty bad but Dude is a bonafide superstar. 4) I think the White Sox should stop looking at the AL Central and look at the Astros as their Northstar or their bullies. In the same way we did with the Twins in 05, how can we make ourselves a little like the Astros. How can we gain that killer edge? How can we match up better with them. It's a small signing but Maldonado would be huge. He's a veteran who can likely impart a lot of wisdom onto some of these younger players, especially during the postseason. 5) Change up the coaching staff. La Russa isn't going anywhere and quite frankly, nor should he. And Katz and Cairo are both really good. But like the rest of the coaching staff is basically what we had with Ventura and Renteria. Tony has talked about leaning a lot on his coaching staff in St. Louis. A lot of these guys aren't very good. Also Menechino, if he doesn't go, is on a short leash. There's probably not a chance in hell they could get Cintron from Houston but someone like him would be amazing. Anyways, I'll try and get back to my sabbatical.

We got our asses kicked because Houston is better than us, period. They smacked us around in Houston during the regular season as well. They aren't timid, They played like they had been since late June. People just thought it was because they were preparing for the post season.

Like Palka and like Vaughn, he just doesn't have the foot speed out there. He's a lot like his father. He belongs at 1B/DH. Rusty Kuntz turned Alex Gordon into a Gold Glove LF, but Gordon has 3X the athletic ability and arm of Sheets. If they choose to go that path with Sheets/Engel, then they're just saying they're happy to be in the post-season every year but not seriously interested in contending for another World Series title. For no other reason than because our starting pitching isn't going to be able to replicate what it did in 2021 without divine intervention. And it's unlikely to be as healthy...despite Lynn and Rodon fading down the stretch, they were both available for the majority of the season.

We need a lefty power hiiting right fielder and I think we should give Sheets a crash course in playing the posistion, whatever happens if he can't hack in right field we still should still keep him as a DH from the left side and also because when Abreu slows down Sheets can take over at first. Burger is another story, if Yoan wasn't such good third sacker I would put him at second and give the 3B job to Burger but that's not going to happen so maybe one of them gets traded for a second baseman with some pop. It would a no brainer to keep Yoan but I'm disappointed in his production, 14 homers and 61 RBI is not what we traded Sale for.

Yes, I know that, the way it was phrased, as if Sheets doesn't have anything in common with those other corner guys' profiles... Let's just put it in these terms. Sheets had a nice little run, and they probably don't trade him (because he's still not a guy with MUCH trade value) because they can't be so right-handed. But they also can't run out two players in the bottom 15-20% of MLB on the corners, either. Something does have to give. Put trading Eloy or playing Vaughn only 30-35% of the time doesn't maximize the value of either one of those guys. It's likely that Burger is the one who goes, but that still doesn't "fix" the aforementioned in thread after thread logjams in LF/RF/1B/DH. You also shouldn't count on Engel/Sheets in RF, but somehow I have a feeling we see that...and one of Vaughn/Jimenez traded. Vaughn/Sheets platoon just seems like it puts way too much pressure on the pitching staff, to go along with Jimenez on the other side...not to mention stress on Robert as well. Finally, locking in either Jimenez or Vaughn at DH, you keep Grandal and/or Abreu on the field way too much for players approaching their mid 30's. Grandal should be DHing quite a bit more with a solid back-up instead of Zavala/Collins types.

I'd keep every position player for 22. Kimbrel can go. -Sign a real FA RF -Burger goes down and have him work on multiple positions (3rd, 2nd, OF) of- Robert, Eloy, FA, Engel if- Yoan, Tim, Cesar, Jose, Mendick/Garcia/cheap vet C- Yaz, Collins (or cheap vet) DH- Sheets Jack of all trades- Vaughn There's plenty of at bats for Vaughn between 1st, LF, Rf, and DH. Keep rotating everyone to keep fresh. Move Jose into a coaching role in 2023 and Vaughn takes over as full time 1st. Maybe Burger can play 2nd after a year working on it?

It is funny how many complaints about lack of depth the Sox supposedly had throughout the season when there was a tough stretch with guys banged up. But immediately after the season ends its time to rid the team of any depth it has.

Personally I think a cap and floor model would actually be beneficial to the players because it would stop the small market teams from going super cheap on their payrolls. That keeps player salaries down more than anything else. The stars will get less but the mid-tier players will get more.

I think the injury and recovery were such that his swing and power would have been effected. Also bearing in mind that 2020 was only 60 games and this season he only played 60 games, it was almost the equivalent of him having a second season slump, it is easy to forget he is only 24 with only 232 games and 894 abs. That said I think next season will be an important one for Eloy.

Depth is an asset, but it’s hard to maintain depth at one spot if you have holes elsewhere and minimal means to address them. Hahn is going to have some really hard choices to make this offseason and keeping all these corner guys is likely not an option.

It would depend on what was offered in return. These logjams usually have a way of working themselves out either by injury or performance. I do expect Eloy and Vaughn to be more productive next year. Sheets really surprised me. There was a point where it seemed the league had figured him out, but apparently he adjusted. Abreu doesn’t have a lot of years left. Burger is a great story and looks to me like he is going to hit, but is probably on misstep from being done.

Beast since I am in the gym biz, I'll try no to grind an ax by telling you of the advantages of a commercial gym v home gym, the bottom line is you would have a much larger selection of equipment w the former. That being said, if you have the discipline to ignore the inevitable distractions of lifting at home, (IE family needing something, phone rings,visitors etc) plus yr driving to a destination with the sole purpose of working out, then yes maybe a humble home gym would be in yr favor. Used equipment can be hard to find as many have turned to working out at home plus you can work out at any hour or day assuming yr gym isnt a 24 hr one By adding various equipment peice by peice is a good way to build yr basement gym and not break the bank. My facility is an old school kind of hard core so I wont comment on planet fitness as they fall short in many categories albeit the price is right Yr routine should be structured and include both resistance training and moderate cardio. I like the push/pull routine of pushing exercises chest, delts and tris where yr pushing the weights AWAY from you one day and the next yr pulling the weights TO you as in back and bis. Then legs for a complete session as they are half yr body. No longer than 60 seconds between sets and larger muscles need a few more sets to exhaust them as opposed to smaller muscles. W/O knowing yr soma type body type, CV at least 3=4 times per week for 20=30 minutes in yr zone Good luck to you

I haven't been following the thread, but I just felt the need to point out how relentlessly I was shit on when this trade was made, for the audacity to suggest that, given the volatility of relievers, Codi Heuer could end up being more valuable than Craig Kimbrel over the remaining few months of the season, and because of that I thought it was a very short-sighted move. I just need to point it out. Please remember it the next time you want to call me a hater. Thank you for your time.

I think you'd be surprised to find out how much content gets removed, how many threads are locked, and how many suspensions quietly handed out each day/week around here. Ron has been the recipient of a lot of it. Moderation is best done as subtly as possible; it isn't supposed to create waves for people to rally for/against.

Yeah, but why allow a dude who obviously hates the white sox and is simply here to troll real fans continue to be here? It’s one thing to have some dude be “weird” sometimes. This dude is a troll. Again, What’s the point of moderators?

We actually encourage weird and annoying.

Because he's a young, controlled, emerging power bat from the left side that's elite defensively at multiple positions that wouldn't cost much to acquire. That's why.

First we had Uncle Ricky, now Grandpa Tony. How about we get a manager who lights a fire under these players and holds them accountable for lackadaisical effort and piss poor fundamentals?

I don't think TLR managed the series perfectly at all but in the end they would not have had a chance anyway the way the key bullpen pitchers performed. Maybe he should have pulled some starters a little earlier and used a different reliever here and there but with kopech, hendricks and kimbrel all pitching badly there just wasn't enough bullpen quality to get through the games with starters being gone after 4-5. The Sox would have needed either their starters going 6+ or kopech, Hendricks and and kimbrel all performing at a peak level and probably in multi inning roles. Sox starters went: 3.2, 4.1, 1.2, 2.2 innings, they Sox didn't have enough quality relievers to get through that many relief innings. If anything maybe he should have pushed the starters a little more but they were getting hit pretty hard and with the Sox not doing much with RISP apart from the game they won that probably wouldn't have worked out anyway. Starters not getting deep, hitters stranding a lot of runners and the back end pen arms not performing was probably too much to overcome.

Club respected him and played loose. One of the things I respected about Tony was his matter-of-fact nature and honesty. Never was too high or low emotionally, which is needed during the marathon that is baseball. We just lost, mostly because our starting pitching completely shit the bed. Tony doesn't have a magic wand unfortunately. What, in your opinion, could Tony have done differently that would have made us beat the Astros? I have some gripes about Game 2 but even with perfect managing we still probably lose that game. Games 1 and 4 were ass whoopings. Game 3 he managed the pen perfectly. EDIT: I would also like to add that I think many Tony "supporters" like myself, don't necessarily think Tony is some amazing gift from God manager. We just think the negativity of him is so out of control that we just tend to defend him because he's not as bad as he's made out to be. He was obviously a great manager in his time, which may be past him, but it's not like he's so mentally out of it that he can't competently manage a baseball team. We literally have a President of the US who is older than him and I think that job is a little tougher than managing baseball.

I disagree. My disagreement is the Sox definitely had the roster, on paper, to make the WS. It would have required a lot of White Sox hitting well, pitching well, fielding OK. Sox played poorly and for me the lasting image is Frank Thomas in studio sadly shaking his head at the rotten series the Sox played. Sox thought they had it all figured out at the trade deadline when they had 7th, 8th and 9th innings allegedly knocked down with bullpen studs and had 2B fixed with a second baseman with some power. Everybody failed, including Tony who zombielike, just tried his best to have a healthy roster come October. Sox deserve an A for their full body of work but an F for the postseason and F for roster management.

I expect it will take several iterations of identifying and fixing bugs to get it to the point that it can be used at high levels.