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I've had multiple posts like this. And ultimately it doesn't matter. I do think if you gave each member of the white sox front office a shot to run the team for the next 5 years, the ceiling for all of them is lower than if you did this for literally any other front office. However, nobody is the same. And if you gave these people JR's ingredients I think some would make better recipes. But why Hahn is worse than KW: - The CBAs made building the farm system easier for Hahn. He was on an equal playing fields with the draft budgets vs "suggested slots" KW was hampered by. And I would argue same with INTL. JR can handle spending the full allotments when there is a cap. You can put it as a line item. - The White Sox under KW had two true, real above average or league leading talents compared to others: Pitcher/Player health and Major League scouting. They really did find veterans who had stuff left in the tank and get them for a discount. Both of these things evaporated under Hahn. There is truly no component of building a team that the white sox have an advantage on compared to other organizations. For KW, he was hampered by JRs rules against going over suggested slot,and there was no hard cap. Given that, it made sense that he pulled from the draft budget and into the Major League budget. Now...overseeing someone performing a felony as your INTL head scout. That's worse than Hahn. Now for Hahn what became harder? The increased velocity and likely decrease of steroid use dried up that second contract veteran in FA. By KWs end that was already dwindling. But Hahn never stopped thinking he was getting bargains paying what he thought was 50% for a proven vet rather than 100% for a younger player. Except the vets kept putting up only 10% the production. - Self scouting - KW just seemed much, much better at knowing which of the guys from the minors were ready, who was dispensible, who had more. Hahn absolutely sucks at this.

Since this rebuild has worked out so great, do it again with the same people. What could possible not lead to multiple championships and sustained winning?

It was not taxpayer funded. George Lucas was going to pay for everything. The Friends of the Park had it killed. It was one of the stupidest things to happen in the history of Chicago. https://chicagoreader.com/columns-opinion/friends-of-the-parks-saved-a-parking-lot-but-effectively-killed-the-lucas-museum/ Lucas is currently building it in LA. It will be done in 2025. Would have looked pretty good on the lakefront and brought in many tourist dollars. https://lucasmuseum.org/

This person nailed it.

Why give Hahn another chance? He has had enough chances and produced this steaming turd.

He's not a Harvard asshole who thinks he has all the answers so he has that going for him.

I read in the paper [real paper] today that Madrigal has a 345 average. Time to get rid of Hahn..he is financially secure, Three words\names are my rationale; Kimbrell, Shields, Dunn.....

Rebuilding in 2016 was the right move, but letting the same FO do it then was as big of a mistake as it would be allowing them to do it again now.

Sorry Lip, I was fucking around with ChatGPT. The AI isn't on our level. Fire his ass.

Do we actually think a change is close to being made, or is this just wishcasting?

Dude stop. This is a joke of an organization run by several POS loser douchebags. So they've had a small handful of outstanding players few and far between in their long history. That doesn't meaningfully change what he said. It's still a loser franchise. They are one lucky year away from being the Detroit Lions. They gather all these high end prospects and can't even win one fucking playoff series in their "title window" and now we can't even win a regular season series. The cheapskate old man, KW and the silver tongued Harvard Law grad BS artist could ruin a wet dream....and probably with ease. BTW your Madres are below .500 too.

I'm bored with this team so here's some proposals: Let Sosa and Colas and Burger take their lumps all year. Park Eloy in LF, if he gets hurt he gets hurt. See if he can rebuild some trade value. Same with Moncada. If some team wants to overpay for Robert entertain it but he's young enough to where possibly he could be part of the next good Sox team. Same with Vaughn. Obvious trades are Giolito, Hendricks when he comes back and then Bummer in any sort of package to a contender as a sweetener at the deadline. Open discussions with Cease. See what he wants. When he wants more than JR will pay him (hey we sat down at the table...) you'll have to trade him, but at least entertain an extension. Maybe he's loyal for some reason. Benitendi is already dead wood. Nobody will trade a bucket of seeds for him even. He will be a guy that is on waivers in July and nobody will bite. That sucks. Grandal has value and honestly deserves a better team. See what you can get for him ASAP as he could get hurt again any time.

No more rebuilds with current leadership. They need to push chips in however long it takes to convince reinsdorf that it’s time to move on. The only question is how deep the hole will be before the plug is finally pulled. Because of how insanely long the leash that they’ve had, we know exactly what this group can and can’t do. They can negotiate contracts and negotiate trades effectively. They cannot build/manage a competitive player development system, and that they cannot manage a payroll or build a roster effectively. There is less doubt about this than than in any typical administrative evaluation, because a typical administrative group in this situation would have been fired long ago. In a relative sense, we have a LOT of data.

Thome is coaching his sons HS team right now. I doubt he wants to give that up because they're probably a better team.

This should be a no brainer. Is Moncada better defensively? Absolutely. Is he reliable? Not at all. He is owed nothing and if him playing a bit at 2nd is better for the team and gets us a better lineup he should just do it. Did Burger have some injuries last year? Yup. But breaking something is a lot different than the constant "sore back" "sore oblique" "long covid nonsense." Dude doesn't play when he feels tired or nearing a slump and you'll never convince me otherwise. If he plays instead of Alberto TA never gets hurt and things don't spiral. Let Burger play. For a fan base that begs for home runs its crazy everyone wants to remove the one guy regularly providing them. The ball is jumping off his bat.

The JR second place carrot theory is very real and is the only thing that matters. Look at the Bulls and their idiotic attempt to make the play in just to get soem playoff revenue.

He’s earned it for overseeing the 28th ranked farm system in baseball! This org is such a joke. Nothing changes until Jerry sells or dies unfortunately. I disagree. Ken Williams isn’t going anywhere. If he’s employed at the top, you aren’t getting any good candidates regardless.

Who runs the best franchises in baseball, the Dodgers and Rays? Rick Hahn's college degrees are the least of our problems. It's his ability as a baseball executive.

I don't see any way out other than rebuilding again because Robert/Moncada only became solid players and not stars, Giolito/Lynn/Anderson peaked early and aren't the same and Cease peaked when Giolito/Lynn/Anderson already fell off. Also Eloy was injured and has otherwise disappointed because he can't hit the ball in the air. Vaughn either is still figuring it out or it might be too late for him. Kopech's secondary stuff might not be good enough to start. Robert is a solid piece and Vaughn might be, but they really don't have anyone long-term besides them and we all know Cease is getting paid by someone other than the Sox. There's really no reason to keep Vaughn and Robert around to build around. Nobody is arguing that Hahn et al should get to do it, but they’re losing way too many players to FA to realistically compete anymore. This year was pretty much their last chance and they look to be falling flat on their faces.

Liam is now cancer free! https://www.instagram.com/p/CrRhURrPRae/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link Great news in the midst of a terrible start to the season.

If your team is routinely finishing with one of the top records in baseball during the regular season, it's hard to see what more the front office could have done. Especially for a team like the Rays that has their own payroll limitations. That front office has worked miracles the past decade.

This entire conversation is stupid. Let's be real. The only ways to truly rebuild this organization into one fit to compete are for Jerry Reinsdorf to either sell or die. That's it. Those are our options. If you read Lip's article from last season concerning the organizational dysfunction, much of which has been confirmed via other reporting, this franchise is 100% fucked. If, by some miracle, we managed to trade away what we have for 10 top 100 prospects, we'll still be losing 5 years from now because the incompetence and dysfunction within the halls of the franchise will remain. Just resign yourselves to the fact we root for one of the worst run organizations in baseball. It's not changing. There's no "lightning in a bottle" which will miraculously carry us to become competitive. We aren't baseball fans. We're nothing more than a bunch of die hard masochists.

Tearing it down in 2016 was the correct course of action then as it is today.

Point taken but maybe they simply put them in a position to almost win. Either ya do or ya don't. Everyone has a reason why they didn't. If you don't believe me just ask'em.

I was 100% against the tank job back in the winter of 16/17 as well. The rebuild was never setup to be successfull. Wunderkind Hahn thought he could just copy what the Cubs and Astros had done and everything would turn out golden. The warning signs were there from day 1 that this rebuild was built on a house of cards, but many chose to straight up ignore them and bury their heads in the sand instead. It will be interesting to see how the Sox procceed moving forward if this season continues to circle the drain. JR is likely salivating at the thought of nuking the payroll back down to 2017 levels, but I'm not so sure that White Sox nation will embace another tank job.

Forget losing on purpose again. Our almost 100 + loss seasons gained us Madrigal and Vaughn for heaven's sake. That turned in half a season of a setup man.

A lineup with Jake and yoan is better than a lineup with yoan and elvis. I see your point defensively but there is more of a chance that Jake improves defensively if he's playing everyday.

This person nailed it, it belongs in here too.

Rather than downgrading two positions defensively, may as well just put Burger at 2B and only downgrade 1. I think, most likely, 1 of 2 scenarios will occur before too long: 1) Burger cools off big time, sort of eliminating the need to to play him everyday; and/or 2) once Yoan does return in a week or two, between Eloy, AV and Yoan, it won't be long until Burger has everyday reps again anyway due to the next ouchie. I am not as staunchly against moving Moncada around as I've been in the past. If Burger is still raking, you do need to find him PAs. At this point, we may as well try to find whatever value we can from Moncada while we have him through 2024. But....Yoan is a really, really good 3B. Its hard for me to fathom too many scenarios that if he's healthy enough to play, that putting him anywhere but 3B gives this team the best opportunity to win the game that day. Jake at 3B and Yoan at 2B doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Everybody knows my feelings on Nick -- but we have replaced him with below replacement talent and squandered his asset value via terrible trades where Hahn yet again misread the future value of a reliever and veteran corner player.

(1) Play Burger at 3B. (2) Play Moncada at 2B if he ever gets healthy (and assuming he can even show the ability to hit better than Andrus/Romy/Sosa/Alberto, which is questionable). (3) Live with a few more errors on defense throughout the year. This is the way.

AV has a 135 wRC+ so far in 2023. While we'd all like to see more power, he's been pretty good at the plate.

Yeah, that 2017 draft in general was terrible. But what did the white sox in was the 2016 draft was what killed us. It was the second best of the decade, we had 3 prime picks, and got absolute trash. The Dodgers meanwhile cemented their catapaulting over the NL west in that draft.

He said he’s leaving the team after his current contract is over. I’m taking him at his word.

IF we rebuild, all I ask is Jerry eats bad contracts paired with prospects. Otherwise the only juice is whatever you can squeeze from a Cease deal. Other than that, it isn't a rebuild, it is just waiting.

I can’t support a rebuild with the same group of assholes running the show. Hahn should have been fired years ago. Only thing you can do right now is hope for some miraculous lightning in a bottle season followed by the death of Jerry so we can escape this hell.

They’re… dead.

There is an ineptness that cannot be denied. They fired Dombrowsiki. When they decided to fire Gene Lamont, they replaced him with Terry Bevington. Terry Francona was in their organization. The other day, I went back 12 years or so to see if any White Sox draft picks not picked in the first round turned out to be good MLB players. The only one I saw you can definitely pin above replacement level is Marcus Semien. Of course they traded him for crap before he was any good. At some point, someone needs to be held accountable. But it appears JR couldn't care less and thinks the fans and press are White Sox eniemies.

2013 - 2022 AL Central Comparison (Overall MLB Rank) Cleveland Win % .517 (4); Payroll $92.1M (26); Attendance 1.411M (27) Minnesota Win % .480 (19); Payroll $111.1M (21); Attendance 1.833M (20) Kansas City Win % .470 (21); Payroll $104.3M (22); Attendance 1.678M (24) Chicago Win % .461 (25); Payroll $115.2M (18); Attendance 1.735M (23) Detroit Win % .452 (28); Payroll $141.7M (11); Attendance 1.955M (18) White Sox Peers (Teams within two +/-) Winning Percentage: (23) Arizona Diamondbacks .464; (24) Philadelphia Phillies .464; (25) Chicago White Sox .461; (26) Colorado Rockies .461; (27) Baltimore Orioles .453. Average Payroll: (16) Seattle Mariners $116.0M; (17) Colorado Rockies $115.8M; (18) Chicago $115.2M; (19) San Diego Padres $113.7M; (20) Cincinnati Reds $112.4M. Average Attendance: (21) Cincinnati Reds 1.750M; (22) Arizona Diamondbacks 1.749M; (23) Chicago White Sox 1.735M; (24) Kansas City Royals 1.678M; (25) Pittsburgh Pirates 1.644M. Overall MLB Standings 2013 - 2022 Los Angeles Dodgers 931-588 .613 - [$222.2M (1); 3.326M (1)] 2020 WS; 2018 & 2017 NL New York Yankees 858-660 .565 - [$207.7M (2); 2.797M (3)] Saint Louis Cardinals 848-668 .559 - [$144.4M (10); 2.963M (2)] 2013 NL Cleveland Guardians 845-671 .557 - [$92.1M (26); 1,411M (27)] 2016 AL Houston Astros 832-686 .548 - [$124.3M (14); 2.086M (15)] 2022 & 2017 WS; 2021 & 2019 AL Boston Red Sox 818-700 .539 - [$182.4M (3); 2.471M (7)] 2018 & 2013 WS Tampa Bay Rays 809-710 .533 - [$69.0M (30); 1.097M (30)] 2020 AL Atlanta MLB Team 793-723 .523 - [$120.4M (15); 2.207M (10)] 2021 WS Chicago Cubs 789-729 .520 - [$152.9M (6); 2.556M (5)] 2016 WS Washington Nationals 778-740 .513 - [$152.8M (7); 2.114M (13)] 2019 WS Milwaukee Brewers 778-741 .512 - [$95.2M (25); 2.277M (9)] Oakland Athletics 772-746 .509 - [$76.0M (27); 1.330M (28)] Toronto Blue Jays 770-748 .507 - [$134.2M (13); 2.184M (12)] New York Mets 767-751 .505 - [$148.4M (8); 2.082M (16)] 2015 NL San Francisco Giants 766-752 .505 - [$163.5M (4); 2.558M (4)] 2014 WS Seattle Mariners 762-756 .502 - [$116.0M (16); 1.920M (19)] Los Angeles Angels 743-775 .489 - [$163.4M (5); 2.517M (6)] Minnesota Twins 729-789 .480 - [$111.1M (21); 1.833M (20)] Pittsburgh Pirates 726-790 .479 - [$71.6M (28); 1.644M (25)] Texas Rangers 714-805 .470 - [$139.0M (12); 2.197M (11)] Kansas City Royals 713-805 .470 - [$104.3M (22); 1.678M (24)] 2015 WS; 2014 AL San Diego Padres 707-811 .466 - [$113.7M (19); 2.103M (14)] Philadelphia Phillies 704-814 .464 - [$145.0M (9); 1.977M (17)] 2022 NL Arizona Diamondbacks 704-814 .464 - [$97.3M (24); 1.749M (22)] Chicago White Sox 700-817 .461 - [$115.2M (18); 1.735M (23)] Colorado Rockies 700-818 .461 - [$115.8M (17); 2.408M (8)] Baltimore Orioles 687-831 .453 - [$99.4M (23); 1.638M (26)] Detroit Tigers 684-829 .452 - [$141.7M (11); 1.955M (19)] Cincinnati Reds 684-834 .451 - [$112.4M (20); 1.750M (21)] Miami Marlins 653-863 .431 - [$71.4M (29); 1.161M (29)] Source Data - The Baseball Cube

Kenny's best team got hot in October and Rick's didn't. I'll always cherish that 2005 season just like everyone else on here, but he was no better as an exec than Rick.

They were fine through the end of 2012... At any rate: HAVE TO GO THIS YEAR: Bummer, Graveman, Lynn, Giolito, Clevinger (if right offer, unfortunately, his option is much better than Lynn's for next year and they have to provide a starting rotation in 2024, plus all the attached "baggage"), Kelly, Grandal, Reynaldo should be either extended or traded/then attempt to resign as FA to replace Liam eventually depending on cost Up for debate: Benintendi (zero benefit to have on roster except "veteran leadership/experience" during rebuild but they likely won't dump his deal yet), Jimenez (likely traded at 60-75 cents on the dollar after extended hot/healthy streak), Moncada (sunk cost), Kopech, Cease (both those guys won't sign team-friendly extensions going into another rebuild), TA7 (three potential windows to trade him, beginning with June/July 2023) Keep: Robert (maybe/probably, unless you can get enough value back in return), Burger, Sheets, Vaughn (probably), Colas, Montgomery, Hendriks (unless he can get back to full health/performance before the trade deadline this year)

Same as the Rick Hahn era. which was the same as the Kenny era. nothing is changing until there's new ownership.

There’s just no other organization that would have stuck with a GM with these results this long. I bought into the rebuild. I felt bad for him about the La Russa hiring. But there’s just no more denying what should happen now. Hahn has to go.

Bolder than this, Rick Hahn still keeps his job with that season outcome you presented.

Bold strategy Cotton, let see if it works.

Actually that is not even close to being accurate on Burger regarding his health or production. Since he recovered from the Achilles injuries, Jake has played fairly healthy. In 2021 he played the majority of the season at Charlotte and only missed a few games there. When he was called up for a short time in the 2021, he played in all 15 games he was available to start or pinch hit in. In 2022 yes Jake had one bad injury but that was from a bruise bone from a hit by a pitch where he missed 23 games. Yet since his Achilles injuries, Jake has not missed one time for the typical hamstrings and obliques that Moncada is known for. On the other hand Moncada had numerous injuries and missed way more games than Burger. In 2021 Moncada did played healthier and played in 144 games. However in 2022 he only played in 104 games and was on the IL three different times. Two were for Hamstring strains and one for an oblique strain. Now in 2023, Burger hasn't missed a game yet and Moncada has already missed 9 games due to a back issue and still counting. Even when he gets back, hw soon before he pulls another hamstring? As far as your comment that when Moncada is healthy he is an MVP candidate potential...is at this stage a pipedream and a delusional prayer. Yes he got off to a good start, but as usual, it was just a matter of time before he got injured. The facts are, the last time Moncada showed anything resembling MVP caliber numbers was 2019 when he did put up good numbers. Since 2019 they are not anything close to MVP caliber numbers and actually well below average numbers for the third base position in MLB: Moncada's last 3 years 2020 - .225/.273/.353/.626 2021 - .263/.375/.412/.787 2022 - .212/.273/353/.626 I'm not sure where you are coming up with your outrageous comment of, Jake Burger is a "very flawed baseball player at his best." I wish we had a few more players on this Sox team that were as flawed as Jake Burger. As long as we got some solid prospects for Moncada, I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

I know we've been through this before, but it would be really helpful if Moncada would consider taking some reps at 2B. I'm not talking about a full-time move, just a little cross-training to increase his versatility. Lots of "everyday players" split time between multiple positions these days. Imagine it's the 6th inning, the Sox are down by a couple runs, but they've got a couple runners on base for Sosa or Andrus (whoever's at 2B). Wouldn't it be nice if Burger was able to pinch hit, and then Moncada could slide over to 2B so the Sox don't have to use up two bench players? And then you don't need Romy or Alberto to be taking those late ABs if you're still trailing in the 8th or 9th?

Incompetence and ineptitude