Leaderboard

See this annoys the hell out of me. The reason many, including myself, liked Mena is because he actually pitched. He has been durable, he had pitched young for the league throughout his career. The problem with Mena is you can’t say “if he just continues on this trajectory with more experience he can succeed”… because his fastball isn’t quite there and his breaking stuff isn’t elite enough. He’s also 6’2”, and this is where smarter people than me should project whether his body type is athletic enough and has room to fill out more to add some power. But the thing with pitching prospects is them randomly just getting a velo increase happens. It turned Davis Martin from nothing to a feasible MLb starter. Now do that do a 22 year old who actually is comfortable with 4 pitches? Norge Vera was stuff first who never pitched and never gets outs. He could have a great year this year and be three years away because he’s pitched so little. In short your reference was bad.

I haven't seen anything in either trade thread about it but it's looking less and less likely with every trade that Whit Merrifield will be coming to the Sox.

Plus defender in all three spots and he smashes righties. Why do people think he’s just a sloppy guy? My god this is frustrating. It’s like political discourse is. Read, research, then comment. Everyone seems to reverse that order on too many topics.

I disagree that we know Getz doesn't value power. He doesn't value it right now with a barren team and a poor minor league system. This is just his first year of a significant change in the FO. I think we can all agree this was a bad defensive team and acquiring defense fist players is cheaper and a quicker way to start retoolong the team. As was stated above. This is year one. Let's see what his targets are as he progresses.

I don't know how you are likening Mena to Vera. Mena is a 20 year old that has reached AAA upon 2 full years in affiliated ball. He's 7 years younger then the league average. He has a gift for spinning the ball with his breaking stuff, and strikes out a mess of dudes. I'm not worried about the command yet. It isn't horrible and he's only 20 years old. The main knock on him is the fastball is light and maybe too hittable. Vera has pitched a grand total of 69 innings now, has much worse control then Mena, has been hurt consistently and his stuff has backed up. He's also 3 years older and has pretty much peaked in High-A. They are not alike at all. Have you watched either of them pitch before?

Terrifies you ? A bit of hyperbole , yes? Doesn't seem as complicated or mystifying as you're making it out to be. You traded a young fast rising pitching prospect who rose fast because he can pitch beyond his years in a bad farm system so pretty easy to advance. Is he talented ? Sure young enough to gain more command, maybe throw a little harder but hardly a surefire MLB SP. It is the 135 innings he's already pitching at his age that's most impressive. But this is a slow process of trying to build the MLB team and farm system at the same time. Your perception of Mena makes you strongly dislike the trade but he could end up a nothing. A lot of people didn't like trading that kid for Mazara either. Much ado about nothing as it turned out. Dominic Fletcher appears to be an MLB hitter. Sox don't have many of those in the OF who can also field. He's likely a minimum 2 War guy with 500 ABs . He has 6 years of control so that's pretty valuable. Getz had to get an OFer that fit his mold of defense. If you wanted a power hitting LH OF who plays good defense you weren't going to find one for Mena. That was supposed to come in a Cease trade. Maybe it still will along with a pitcher to replace Mena. But in the meantime you got the most talented hitter plus defense 4th OF guy for 6 more yrs. But right now he will be the starter. I'll guess if he gets 500 ABs and he's 2nd or 3rd among Sox position players with around 2.5 War. Getz likes doing multiplier trades. Bummer, Mena, Santos got back how many guys ? 9 and a draft pick right ? The 2024 and beyond Sox did get better with this trade and the coming Cease trade will perhaps fill the need for higher upside guys and a pitcher to replace Mena.

To all members blasting Mena. We will rue this day very soon. 26 year old prospects under 5'7" rarely move the needle. 20 year olds in AAA do.

Did Caulfield really just dig up a thread from EIGHT years ago dealing with Adam freaking LaRoche of all people? Lord...

So this was an interesting read: https://www.prospectslive.com/prospects-live/2022/9/14/prefecting-berroa Basically, a prospect/pitching nerd breaking down how he thinks the key to making Berroa the best version of himself (including potentially keeping him as a SP instead of a RP) might lie in changing his slider grip. The change he recommends and the comps for it? Well... Now it could just be some guy looking at pitch data and dreaming on a prospect he likes....but this particular guy, Tieran Alexander, has since left the prospect-blogging business to join the staff of "an unnamed MLB team" as a consultant, so at least one front office out there is convinced he knows his stuff. Not trying to imply that he's in Chicago of course, but just that he has some decent credibility on the subject and it wouldn't surprise me if the Sox line of thinking on Berroa might be similar given the Cease/Rodon comps (and that he seems to share Katz' belief in the importance of pitch tunneling, since he worked on a SABR Award nominated analysis on the subject).

He’s going to turn into peak Adam Eaton and you are going to fall in love with his grindiness.

Cristian Mena is going to pitch in the majors as a 21-year-old after signing for $250K. It’s an extremely successful international signing. Getz understands that they need power. It’s just expensive to acquire. This plan really isn’t tough to figure out. And also, DeLoach has quite a bit of power. This is extremely dramatic. I’m sure they value Nastrini, Eder, Cannon etc higher than Mena. He projects as a #4 starter. It’s going to be okay.

I never took Baltimore seriously and this is further proof. If you gave me Baltimore's Top 15 prospects and said, "Name the 2 you don't want," it would have been Ortiz and Hall for me. Elias is clearly getting rid of players who would never have played for the O's. The fact that the Brewers are going to use Ortiz as a glove-first 3b tells me this is all about a small market team looking to get pre-arb years. The Sox should have a higher standard than that.

Mena being traded for a player the Sox like means he was a successful signing.

This forum and fanbase makes me angry sometimes. "he is only 5'6", what a bad trade" Dude put up good numbers in his debut season, looks solid in videos, plays good defense, doesn't swing at sliders 4 feet off the plate like every other garbage hitter we have developed, and STILL some posters on this forum are throwing a fit because of his height. Its like its all they care about. .7 WAR in 28 games, tore up every level in the minors, plays all 3 OF positions well, solid.

Mena trade got me thinking what the AAA rotation would look like then just moved along all the way down the farm system. As recently as last year there were only 2-3 guys per level I was interested in looking at the box score from starting pitching side. This year, I would say most levels have guys I'm at least interested in checking box score every night and some levels have more than 5 legit SP candidates. Thoughts? I assume Woodford, Vera, Simas, Gosswein, Kelley, etc are bullpen only options. Guessing on promotions vs. repeating to try to make numbers even per level. AAA SP1: Nick Nastrini SP2: Jared Shuster SP3: Sean Burke (if he's healthy?) SP4: Johan Dominguez SP5: Josimar Cousin (given age and recent 40 man status promotion) SP6: Chad Kuhl SP7: Berroa or Crochet (if trying to stretch out?) IR: Davis Martin AA SP1: Jake Eder (hopeful but make him earn promotion) SP2: Jonathan Cannon SP3: Matthew Thompson (young enough to repeat AA to start) SP4: Ky Bush (make him earn promotion) SP5: Juan Carela SP6: Mason Adams A+ SP1: Noah Schultz SP2: Peyton Pallette SP3: Tanner McDougal SP4: Tyler Schweitzer SP5: Shane Murphy SP6: Connor McCullough A SP1: Grant Taylor SP2: Seth Keener SP3: Aldrin Batista SP4: Lucas Gordon SP5: Jake Peppers Rookie: SP1: Christian Oppor SP2: Maximo Martinez SP3: Mathia LaCombe SP4: Luis Reyes SP5: Jeremy Gonzalez SP6: Denny Lima

Best post of the day.

Lance Lynn has had one good year in his thirties, was given $97M over seven years including $10M this offseason despite the fact he has three playoff seasons over the same period with double digit ERAs. Even mediocre pitching is valuable, much more so than 4th - 5th OF types you can pick up each and every season at or slightly above the ML minimum. If he was 22-23 and possibly project into a viable everyday starter, I would have honestly still preferred Mena, but wouldn't have longer term concerns in terms of Getz' strategy. This deal might work out net net, but the upside clearly is with Arizona. Best case scenario he performs well as a platoon RF and he can be flipped this or next year for a decent prospect or two, which is what they had with Mena with the potential to be a cost controlled #3 - #5 starter profile for a contending team in 2026/2027.

We have multiple 45 FV pitching prospects…I’d say four of them. However, if you look at the bust rate on prospects like these, that’s really not all that much. It’s a numbers game and IMO we don’t have enough of them. And to be fully transparent, I wouldn’t disagree that our farm is even weaker in terms of OF talent. I just wouldn’t rob from our minor league pitching supply to get it. And if we felt it was key to trade Mena, I’d prefer moving him for a younger, higher ceiling OF prospect. Obviously not a popular take here, but it’s how I feel given where we are at in our rebuild.

And the draft pick is higher than any comp pick for giving a QO would be, so there’s that.

Buddy, I don’t think I “baseball” better than anyone. I just disagree with your claim that we have a surplus of pitching. You seem to be taking this back & forth way too personal when it’s just standard message board debate. I have zero problem with you or anyone for that matter attacking my opinions…god knows I’ve had plenty of dumb ones in the past. I don’t like it when people try to misconstrue what others are saying though and you keep doing just that. As for Mena, sure I’ll call him a good prospect. I think me not liking the trade would already imply that, but if it needs to be written so be it (hopefully no one makes fun of me too much!). As for the “second tier” comment you seem to be anchored on, I would place him in a tier with guys like Eder, Pallette, & Cannon. That doesn’t make him a bad prospect, but simply puts him behind Schultz & Nastrini in terms of status. Also, Mena having flaws like a mediocre fastball doesn’t make him a bad prospect either….it just puts him in that second tier.

And the first two and likely third season will all be losing White Sox baseball teams. In 2021, I cared about replacing Adam Eaton and Jake Lamb and Brian Goodwin and Andrew Vaughn and Gavin Sheets in RF because wins and losses actually mattered in a contention season. Wins and losses are not the priority in 2024. When you have a contending team, sacrificing youth for veterans for final pieces can be justified. For the 2024 White Sox, long term needs are primary, short term production secondary. Spending money on short term FA doesn't impact future White Sox baseball, but dumping young prospects is harmful. Just play a guy who can adequately or better cover RF. If Colas isn't ready, it is not a huge difference whether it's Pillar or Phillips or DeLoach or even Whit Merrifield or Eloy or Billy Hamilton. Don't even care if it's Fletcher if he was a waiver claim or FA signing. Counting wildly inflated PCL stats as power is a stretch. He would be lucky to hit double digit home runs in a season even in HR friendly ballparks like Arizona or the Sox. Several comparisons in this thread to Adam Eaton are ridiculous. Eaton was an established ML hitter with a 5.2 bWAR season under his belt and over 200 MLB games played before entering his age 26 and 27 seasons. This guy was Arizona's sixth best outfielder at best, has 102 career plate appearances. If they thought anything of him, if they thought his .791 OPS and .377 BABIP was sustainable he would have continued playing last season. Neither are, and he will have trouble contributing once ML pitchers actually focus on his weaknesses vs. prioritizing other hitters in the lineup. It's the same as pitchers handing Grandal 87 walks in 2021 6 hole, to focus on getting Leury, Lamb, Mendick, Madrigal and the other poor bottom third hitters in the White Sox lineup. Grandal had 6 less walks the next two seasons combined despite having more plate appearances in both years. He put up empty walk stats not because he was some reincarnation of Barry Bonds, but rather because there was no risk in walking him to clog up the bases with three below MLB quality hitters behind him on a regular basis. If I managed against Luis Robert this season, he'd lead the league in walks. Take your chances with the next guy, be it Yoan or Eloy or anyone else. Since 2/3 of baseball aren't contending, that won't happen, but in a meaningful game it would be done on a regular basis.

Here’s my hope for this trade: Bannister came in and looked at the Sox pitching inventory and Getz got rid of two guys he didn’t like that much. If their veal on Mena is that he’s gonna be a 2 or a 3, this is a terrible trade. But if they think he’s a 5/up and down guy, then I can see why they did it. At this time, I want to trust them.

I’d hesitate to call what the Sox have a surplus of starting pitching. What they have are a lot of bodies, and they need a lot of bodies because pretty much all of their starting pitchers are questionable.

He was excellent defensively in CF at Arkansas

Does Getz understand that slap hitting Limp Dick bats are not what corner OFers are supposed to be? Asking for a friend. At least he's left handed and did damage against RHP in a limited sample size last year, although he's FAR from a savage. Or maybe the plan is for him to hold down the strongside of the platoon in RF this year and then move him to CF after Robert is traded since he's a glove first player? Does anyone know the scouting report on him as a CF? I still want Lazaro Montes in a SEA trade to serve the savage role, because somewhere at some point, someone in the lineup (esp post Robert) has to strike fear into the pitcher.

There was exactly zero qualified dudes late year with a BABIP of .377. Not happening over a larger sample size.

Well then Fletcher can slide to CF in that theoretical scenario and his lack of power is less concerning. We’re dealing with like a quarter deck of cards here as far as 25-26 and beyond are concerned.

Baseball Prospectus had DeLoach ranked 11th & Berroa ranked 15th. Here are the write-ups for those interested:

Dominic Fletcher has hit 42 minor league homers. He's not just a little slappy guy.

It terrifies me because Getz doesn’t appear to value power all that much and we are probably going to get the least amount of HRs in the corner OF spots of any team in baseball. And if all goes well, this is our OF alignment for the next four years. Where is all the power coming from? So yes, I find the early signs of roster construction to be highly concerning.

Come on man. By that logic they should never make another international SP signing again.

There were warts with both, but generally agree, although rue the day may be a bit much.A lot of people here were praising the addition of Josh Barfield when Getz added him to the staff. You have to figure this trade was his baby, so it will be interesting to see how it turns out. What I loved about both trades was that they both were old school trades where money had nothing to do with it.

@tray will be tailgating by himself at Guaranteed Rate Field, wondering where everyone is.

Mena has struggled at EVERY SINGLE STOP not named Kannapolis. I'm not losing sleep over moving a kid with his repertoire in favor of a kid who is ready to play the OF for a team that sorely lacks MLB ready OFers.

Yeah, that .377 BABIP is consistent with his minor league career. Some guys just hit. I don't have to pretend that every single player will slash .000/.000/.000 to protect myself from getting disappointed.

I think it was Rollins, along with Avila and Frazier. All three were veterans who were new to the team, and apparently did not enjoy the idea of having a child in the clubhouse all day, everyday. What a weird year. All of that to finish in 4th place, again.

At 5-foot-6, 185 pounds, Fletcher has nevertheless managed to cut an imposing figure at the plate since Arizona drafted him in 2019. In more than 1,600 minor league appearances, he has hit .295/.366/.474 with 42 home runs and 201 RBIs, and in 28 games with the Diamondbacks last season, Fletcher hit .301/.350/.441 with a pair of home runs and 14 RBIs. The younger brother of Atlanta utilityman David Fletcher, the left-handed hitter will compete for right-field at-bats, with All-Star Luis Robert Jr. in center and Andrew Benintendi in left. Arizona traded from a position of strength, with All-Star Corbin Carroll, Yuli Gurriel, Alek Thomas, Jake McCarthy and the recently signed Joc Pederson all outfielders. Mena, 21, throws a hard curveball, a low-to-mid-90s fastball and will provide upper-level rotation depth after striking out 156 in 133.2 innings between Double A and Triple A last season. espn.com

Dude had a BABIP of .377 and and .407 against RHP. Unless he can walk on water that not happening again. He might hit just enough to be viable but anytime you depend on a player's value to be primarily derived from their defense you're going to be disappointed.

I like both trades. Mena will be lucky to make the majors as a reliever. I don’t get the love for him. He will likely go the way of Norge Vera.

While taking public transportation to get there cause Sox fans hate that.

I'm excited because it's not a schlub who will be nudged out by August. I'm excited because we've picked up 6-12 interesting/exciting pitching prospects/projects in the last 8 months, and 0 (zero) OF prospects worthy of note. Between today's 2 OF acquisitions, we probably have our starting RF. If the dude puts up 2 WAR, it's a victory of untold magnitude. Of all our pitching prospects, I'd call Christian Mena middle tier. He's also interesting, but I think we can call starting pitching an area where we have multiple options at this point. I would have loved to see Marco Paddy have a resounding victory that validated his presence in the organization. Maybe Lenyn Sosa will be that validation. I would have loved to acquire Fletcher for Laz Rivera straight up. I do think we got a very interesting RF option today.

Andrew Vaughn starting the first game at the new South Loop Stadium.

I think Madrigal's top 5 in MLB WAR for that 1st round. He's certainly logged more bWAR than the 3 guys chosen before him.

What does Tray hate more: Andrew Vaughn or a South Loop stadium?

Maybe they're waiting for Elias to finish sitting shiva for Joey Ortiz. He's probably locked himself in a room, playing Roy Orbison songs and drawing hearts around the head of a DL Hall 8 x 10.

Why would the Sox dump their young and cheap first round pick and who would they start at first base instead?

I agree on Benintendi, he had a bad wrist last year, batting second I’d pencil him in for close to a .300 BA with 10-15 homers and 60 ribbies, .770+ OPS.

What world do you live in where 26 year olds that have a great track record of hitting at every level are just floating around on the free agent list? What a ridiculously bad take. And Mena is a mediocre prospect that got overrated amongst the mess the Sox have in the minors. A RHP that has a 90 mph fastball and below average control isn’t a recipe for success…and the results show so far in the minors.

Fletcher is a fine player and this likely means no more Gavin Sheets so it's a fantastic trade.