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The answer is simple and swift: when JR decided to hire TLR to manage this team.

The first mistake we made was not going all in on Bryce Harper after we missed out on Machado. I will never for the life of me understand the thinking there and that miss continues to haunt us to this day with a struggling RH heavy offense. The next miss was Wheeler as having him instead of Keuchel would be a compete game changer for the franchise. Can’t really blame Hahn for that one, but sucks nonetheless. Hiring La Russa was the next major mistake and its impact is hard to quantify. His in-game decision-making has been terrible and the team seems to be underperforming well beyond what any of us could have predicted. How much of that is on Tony is up for debate, but I’d argue his lack of energy is playing some role in it. Finally, Hahn had an epically bad offseason with multiple questionable decisions. No idea what his plan was coming out of the lockout, but refusing to add a single impact player to the core and instead dumpster diving at multiple spots has cost us dearly. And resigning Leury for three years when there was zero chance the market would have bared such a contract is one of the most mine-boggling decisions in recent memory. Perhaps Tony had a role there, but it was shockingly bad signing the moment announced even if the primary reason of our struggles this year.

No, no he won't turn the tide. His last 32 starts, from 5/5/21 through last night (excludes two relief appearances over that time frame): 157.1 IP, 107 ER, 198 H, 66 BB 4.9 IP/start 6.13 ERA 1.68 WHIP It's an insult to the other 25 guys on this roster (and also the fans who buy tickets) to allow him to continue starting. Let him be the mop up guy until Lynn and Kelly are back and the pitcher limit goes back down to 13 on June 20, then DFA him.

The team and their future look a whole lot better if Yoan and Eloy were hitting like we thought they were capable. There’s your 2 and 4 hitters for the next five years. Having a 300/400/450 switch hitter batting 2nd and a 40 homer slugger batting 4th solves a lot of problems.

If that was Keuchel with pride, then I'd prefer he dial back his pride some. Actually, I'd prefer if they just release him today.

Lol. Nah. I understand the point of gamethreads. It's cathartic for people to grouse and yell about things with like-minded folk. More power to them. I don't like to steep myself in too much negativity though. Just a life approach I guess. But man, the whole Dallas Keuchel experience and its trappings just enrages something in me. It's like every 5th day we get a painful reminder about the front office's incompetence in the offseason combined with the a notion of them being "ok" with punting games after a horribly underwhelming start to the season. Blah.

Them: “there’s too much revisionist history on this site.” Me: “Here’s the 5000 words I wrote in a 2019 thread on the theme that Rick Hahn is the worst GM in baseball.” (you’ve got me on being dumb enough to like the Kimbrel trade because I didn’t look at any of his advanced stats and just assumed RH had. Oops.)

I almost feel the organization as a whole has determined what they have done is already enough. I'm a partial season ticketholder. I hold a small weekend plan. I used to be a full season guy in premium seats. The way they have just ignored season ticketholders reminds me of 2006k, when as a 15 year season ticketholder, my rep wanted me to move back a couple of rows, just because. The year before, they couldn't do enough for you. There were numerous parties, we got to take batting practice. Now, apparently, they think they must have won again. I am being totally ignored, and most things season ticketholders used to receive, are gone. The players are playing the same way.

I don't care if anyone thinks it's TLR or Hahn , scouting ,development, drafting ,injuries, international money, analytics, or whatever. I could quote every post in here and question why any part of the organization is bad and the answer is still Jerry Reinsdorf.

They had a bad draft strategy. They had a number of picks at the top of the draft and used them on low ceiling college corners instead of HS athletic middle players. They drafted too many redundant players and are now stuck with a slow, unathletic bad defensive team with zero versatility. Hahn's inability to find the right pieces to fill in the many gaps on the roster is also a major problem.

I haven't seen one person suggest that Grandal was a bad signing. You appear to be reading criticism of Grandal as criticism of his signing Nowhere near 90% were positive about that trade. He won MVP solely because COVID happened and there were no games in April-May. He has yet to hit well enough in those months to even sniff MVP consideration in a full season. In light of this team having so many other DHs playing out of position, it's easy to make the argument that he shouldn't have been extended, or at least not for 3 years at that price. The calls for Conforto were strongest only after every single other LH outfield bat went off the market. Obviously Conforto was not an option, but Hahn's failure was not acquiring a LH bat in general, and not Conforto specificially. Kelly and Harrison are wasted money at this point, which many people suggested would happen. Leury should never have been offered anything more than 2/7, if that.

The bolded is just flat out wrong. And it's not so much that they didn't sign Conforto. At the time when we didn't know about the shoulder, yes a lot of people wanted him. But it's also the fact they didn't really address the RF issue at all.

The other missing answer is October of 2016, when JR decided he would let Rick Hahn do this rebuild rather than fire him like 29 other franchises would have. He can still have compliments on the 3 big trades, but the drafting and development failures, the poorly thought out it trades, the inability to find usable big league pieces from guys cast off by other teams during the down years, and the free agency failures all are contributing to this team right now. And it’s remarkable how much that sounds like the reasons Hahn should have been fired in 2016.

From my viewpoint, the underlying cause of all of the problems is not relying enough on analytics. Management not emphasizing analytics enough when hiring the coaching staff, both at the major and minor league levels. Management not utilizing analytics when making player decisions, both at the major league level and in the draft. The coaching staff not utilizing analytics when coaching the players and making decisions about playing time. Of course, this ultimately falls on the owner. He's the one who hires the President/GM who aren't using analytics enough. If I were to somehow magically inherit the Sox, the first thing I would do is offer every single member of the Tampa front office a 50% salary increase to come take the same position with the Sox.

Dallas should say some more tough things. Maybe talk about how everyone else doesn't know how to win, and how he has to show them how to win, and maybe they should all be in better defensive spots, and also nobody should doubt him because he will use that and turn the tide with his pride

As I read so many people complain about how things went wrong and continue to go wrong, I get a little tired of people on here saying that Hahn was a complete idiot for this move or that move or for signing this player. What drives me a little crazy is that I have to believe a ton of those people pitching the biggest fit, were totally for those moves when they happened, but seem to have conveniently forgotten that. Let's give some examples. Grandal: When Grandal became available as a free agent, poster after poster was on here was saying how the Sox need to grab him, how great his defense was, how great his framing is and how much with his framing he would help our pitchers. "He's the best catcher in baseball"; that kind of stuff. When the Sox signed him, people on here were losing it in their happiness. "What a great signing." There was a clear majority of people who thought Grandal would bring all that to the Sox and posting it on this board. Now, all I read is what an idiot Hahn was for signing this aging, falling-apart veteran who is terrible defensively. It is so clearly hypocritical for these same posters, and there has to be a lot of them now, who are bashing Hahn for doing something they agreed with at the time. Kimbrel: After the Sox signed him, I came on here wondering if it was a good move. I would guess, at least, 90% of the posters were ecstatic about that trade. Some wondered with we really wanted to trade young talent for an older, unreliable reliever. A few were against it. But 90% of the posters were creaming their pants, "This is such a great move." "The window is open now. We're going for it." Just poster after poster, after poster thinking this was the best move ever. After reading all that, I got really excited about the trade too. Yet, now everyone on here claims that Hahn was a moron for making this move. Again, the revisionist history is hard to take. How many people on here were stating that the Sox needed to unload Abreu and not sign him three or so years ago? "Trade him, trade him while he still has value." It wasn't a strong majority, but there was a majority that wanted to not sign him. What happened? He won the MVP the next year. No one admits they're wrong on that one. More recently, Tons and tons of posters on here were repeatedly saying that Hahn was letting the organization down and "we need him for the window" screaming that Hahn NEEDED to sign Conforto. How did that one turn out? Are those people who were so wrong on that one, are they the same people on here saying that Hahn is an idiot and needs to be fired. I would bet that a lot of them are. So here is an example of Hahn doing the right thing by not making a move, a move that many, many posters wanted him to make. Yet again, Hahn was correct, but those same posters, without admitting they were wrong, continue to demand that Hahn be fired. I understand the examples I'm giving are completely typical of fans in general and of forum posters in particular, but still, the absolute certainty that some posters express on this board that this move or that move was wrong long after it happened, when they for that move before it happened or when it happened, that is really tough to take at times.

Thanks. Maybe less Vera questions in random threads now. ?

Hahn is a puppet. Reinsdorf is the puppeteer.

This thread is amazing because pretty much every single post is making a different but equally valid point. It's just an endless list.

I try to be positive and supportive of management but this stuff drives me crazy. MLB announced starting June 21st, 2021 that the umpires would be checking pitchers for doctoring baseball substances. DK had pitched 26 games with the White Sox before June 21, 2021 and had an ERA of 3.01 (not just great in 2020...his ERA on June 15th 2021, the start before the check, was 3.78). The 24 starts since then (I thew out the suspended game on June 26 2021 as it was half in and half out) his ERA is 7.18. Come on...is this not obvious to everyone? How can the White Sox not see this?? It's not like it's a small sample size or explained by a slump or injury. DK is a Cy Young candidate when he's cheating and he's the worst pitcher in baseball when he's not and it's very frustrating to watch the White Sox come to any other conclusion. Yes he shut out the Yankees for 15 outs a few weeks ago (his ERA is 7.54 without that start) but it's not like he was even good then...7 baserunners in 5 innings. Honestly...resign Rodon, bullpen game, minor leaguer spot starts, VV...almost any other scenario comes up better than DK and yet every fifth game here he comes again. It drags me over to the "organizational stupidity" majority side here on Soxtalk.

$18,000,000.00

I mean, what else are we supposed to do? If I was a fan of them acquiring Kimbrel, but then it doesn't work out and he's awful.......it was a bad move. I can still understand the process behind it, but I expect the GM of the team I root for to be smarter than me. I'll put it another way. If Rick Hahn makes 10 moves, and I like 8 of them, great. But if those 8 moves that I liked end up not working for the Sox...that probably means the team doesn't have a good record, and I probably no longer want Rick Hahn as the GM of my team. He doesn't get a pass for building a flawed team because I was excited about a move at the time.

A thread complaining about all the threads that complain too much. Most Soxtalk thing ever! Seriously, RH hyped a “championship window” then built a team that is .500 over its last 120 games while also being nearly unwatchable. He deserves criticism even if all of us were as stupid as he is, which we weren’t. Frankly, complaining about them is the only joy most of us get out of watching this dull and listless team. Please do not begrudge us our simple pleasures.

The Sox didn't, they drafted a 1B/2B/OF.

I think everyone knew the White Sox offseason was anemic this year. Looking in hindsight, it appears almost any move they made would have been bad. The problem I had though, and still do, is the fact they didn't go for the jugular. There is still 120 games left, so they can turn it around, however, if you are sleepwalking now, what are you going to be doing in the dog days of August?

I'll tell you exactly what the problem was: they couldn't leave well enough alone. Going into 2021 they were *set*. They had invested in great young talent, locked much of it up for future seasons, and that talent had arrived. They were ahead of the field and didn't need to do a freaking thing. All they needed to do was integrate the talent, get it on the field, and leave it there to cohere into whatever is was destined to become - and only *then* consider how to augment and fine tune it. They never gave that a chance to happen. When other teams made high profile acquisitions at the trade deadline the Sox just had make their own noise and that core never got a chance to really play together - a problem which was then exacerbated by the injuries and the decision to mix and match lineups both during the time they were shorthanded and after. The dream team never happened. It never had a chance.

Not sure I understand the point of this thread. What are you trying to accomplish or hoping to prove here? I think you believe you're defending Hahn and the job he's done, but in reality you're saying any fan could have done the job he's done. Furthermore, what do you expect fans to be doing right now? We were told, by the man you're defending, that this was a World Series or bust season. The time is now. This is the window. The Sox are 22-22 and have one of the worst run differentials in baseball. What should the fans be saying, @vilehoopster?

Wow where to start? Actually it's really simple.The Sox are more concerned with their investors making money than they are with winning. They spend as little as they can get away with so lots of areas in the organization get neglected and underutilized and underfunded. Since all that starts at the top the one and only reason is Jerry Reinsdorf. Everything beyond that is all tied directly to him.

The idea that people were not concerned about how this team ended up at this size of a payroll is the most revisionist example I can think of.

I wouldn't say crazy, but seriously confused! The original Sale trade was to get a #1 overall prospect in MLB. It was not to get a consistently injured player, who you get to project production based on a select two seasons of the six seasons he has played. That is not what the Sox signed up for. He also was suppose to be a 2nd baseman, if he would have worked harder at being a good 2nd baseman, then a former #1 draft pick and potential great player like Jake Burger, wouldn't have to be playing part time or being sent down to Charlotte. I am tired of all these excuses that are made for Yoan, like, "It's still early in the season and he'll get better". News Flash! We are only 44 games into the season. Go check the MLB stats and count how many players are having great years. Great players just play great and get it done! 2022 stats: 59 AB's BA .136 BABIP .158 OBP .177 SLG .254 OPS .431 1 double 2 HR's 2 BB's Career BA .257 I'm sorry, but that is not a great player for a former #1 prospect and a major part of the Chris Sale trade. Btw, if Moncada is playing hurt, then they need to put him on the IL and play Burger.

How this isn't #1, I will never know.

I lol’d at that line too. Maybe the leeway is that he’s making a bajillion dollars. Or that once upon a time he won a cy young. You know, the stuff that really matters to a team that’s supposedly trying to win now.

And you guys were worried Dallas was going hit his option.

The Sox do have options; that’s what’s so maddening. Reylo has been very good as a long reliever. He can start. VV has been up and down, but even when bad, he’s waaaay less bad than Keuchel, and VV has throw a couple good games. Go with Martin; give him another start. Anyone of those guys is better than throwing away a game starting Keuchel.

Thanks Josh Donaldson.

I think the Kimbrel trade was a turning point.

I'm convinced what we see is what we get. Sox are a mediocre team at best. Teams with ultra bad defense and at least four automatic outs in a lineup on a given night are going nowhere. The pitching, which I think is still a question mark, determines whether this team completely tanks or continues to hang around .500.

This.

Talent > pride. Fuck Keuchel. He absolutely sucks. Should have hung it up after last season.

HahahahaGTFO you jackass.

DFA Keuchel and at least something positive will have come from throwing away what was otherwise a winnable game

I don't expect the Sox to get better until Cody Asche regains his rightful place as lone player honored in the Soxtalk banner.

He just isn't good. Has some of the worst homerun calls I have ever heard. Great announcer, just not for baseball and certainly not for the team I enjoy watching.

The problem is we both know that won't happen! I wish it would. As long as JR owns the team we both also know it doesn't matter.

Fuck that, fire his ass

So are we sticking to the narrative Sox have nowhere to go but Kuechel? I have a suggestion where he can go though?

I want Sosa in AAA merely to get the Statcast data.

On a team that has Cease, Kopech, Giolito, Cueto and Velasqez, and in the middle of having 3 days off in an 8 day span, there's no excuse for Dallas Keuchel to be starting a game.

It seems like the opposing pitcher always knows our guys' strategy that day. If they're swinging early, the pitches always seem to be out of the zone and our guys are swinging at trash, but if they're being patient, the pitcher is throwing middle/middle strikes and getting ahead 0/2, 1/2 on everybody.